1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:48,989 --> 00:00:52,509 (soft orchestral music) 4 00:02:54,909 --> 00:02:57,909 (orchestral music) 5 00:05:14,309 --> 00:05:18,109 - Archbishop Stepinac, welcome. 6 00:05:18,109 --> 00:05:18,349 - Archbishop Stepinac, welcome. 7 00:05:20,789 --> 00:05:23,029 Is that how you prefer to be addressed? 8 00:05:23,069 --> 00:05:24,109 - It's just Archbishop. 9 00:05:24,109 --> 00:05:25,469 - It's just Archbishop. 10 00:05:25,509 --> 00:05:26,509 - Aloysius. 11 00:05:27,589 --> 00:05:28,789 - That's much better. 12 00:05:31,949 --> 00:05:32,789 Josip. 13 00:05:37,229 --> 00:05:38,109 - Aloysius. 14 00:05:38,149 --> 00:05:39,949 - We finally meet. 15 00:05:39,989 --> 00:05:41,109 Please have a seat. 16 00:05:44,429 --> 00:05:45,829 How rude of me? 17 00:05:45,869 --> 00:05:47,589 This is comrade Vladimir Bakaric, 18 00:05:47,589 --> 00:05:48,109 the President of our Executive Council of Croatia. 19 00:05:48,109 --> 00:05:50,189 the President of our Executive Council of Croatia. 20 00:05:52,229 --> 00:05:54,109 I've been traveling all across this great land of ours, 21 00:05:54,109 --> 00:05:54,909 I've been traveling all across this great land of ours, 22 00:05:54,949 --> 00:05:56,749 as we've liberate it. 23 00:05:56,789 --> 00:05:58,349 How great to be on her. 24 00:06:04,749 --> 00:06:05,589 You smoke? 25 00:06:05,629 --> 00:06:06,109 - No. 26 00:06:06,109 --> 00:06:06,509 - No. 27 00:06:06,549 --> 00:06:08,709 - Catholics are allowed to smoke, yes? 28 00:06:08,749 --> 00:06:09,469 - Yes. 29 00:06:09,469 --> 00:06:10,429 - Oh, that's right. 30 00:06:10,469 --> 00:06:11,789 It's Muslim who can't. 31 00:06:11,789 --> 00:06:12,109 - They're not allowed to drink alcohol either. 32 00:06:12,109 --> 00:06:13,789 - They're not allowed to drink alcohol either. 33 00:06:13,829 --> 00:06:15,989 - They don't know what they're missing, do they? 34 00:06:16,029 --> 00:06:16,909 You drink? 35 00:06:16,949 --> 00:06:18,109 No? - On occasion, 36 00:06:18,109 --> 00:06:18,629 No? - On occasion, 37 00:06:18,669 --> 00:06:20,989 - A son of a winemaker surely has a glass of wine 38 00:06:20,989 --> 00:06:22,029 now and then. 39 00:06:22,029 --> 00:06:24,109 Tell me during mass, 40 00:06:24,109 --> 00:06:24,869 Tell me during mass, 41 00:06:24,869 --> 00:06:26,069 do you really take a sip of wine 42 00:06:26,109 --> 00:06:27,869 or is it just water to fool the masses? 43 00:06:27,909 --> 00:06:29,949 - It is real wine. 44 00:06:31,989 --> 00:06:33,749 - He won, the bastard. 45 00:06:35,149 --> 00:06:36,109 I was certain that you'd be one to stick with water. 46 00:06:36,109 --> 00:06:39,269 I was certain that you'd be one to stick with water. 47 00:06:39,309 --> 00:06:40,589 - And what did he win? 48 00:06:41,709 --> 00:06:42,109 - Another week among the living. 49 00:06:42,109 --> 00:06:44,109 - Another week among the living. 50 00:06:45,789 --> 00:06:48,109 And a bottle of whiskey given to me by the Yugs. 51 00:06:48,109 --> 00:06:48,269 And a bottle of whiskey given to me by the Yugs. 52 00:06:49,629 --> 00:06:52,189 You see no one believed in us. 53 00:06:52,229 --> 00:06:53,869 And now that we've prevailed in the war, 54 00:06:53,909 --> 00:06:54,109 the west and the east just adore us. 55 00:06:54,109 --> 00:06:57,869 the west and the east just adore us. 56 00:06:57,869 --> 00:07:00,109 So we have vodka from Moscow, whiskey from America, 57 00:07:00,109 --> 00:07:01,509 So we have vodka from Moscow, whiskey from America, 58 00:07:01,549 --> 00:07:04,189 cigars from Cuba, chocolates for Belgium. 59 00:07:04,229 --> 00:07:06,109 Please have as many as you like, I won't tell. 60 00:07:06,109 --> 00:07:07,269 Please have as many as you like, I won't tell. 61 00:07:07,309 --> 00:07:09,429 - Thank you, but no. 62 00:07:10,269 --> 00:07:11,469 - A man of principal. 63 00:07:13,189 --> 00:07:14,789 Did the church teach you discipline 64 00:07:14,829 --> 00:07:16,829 or was it being a soldier? 65 00:07:16,869 --> 00:07:17,749 - Life did. 66 00:07:18,709 --> 00:07:20,309 - Aloysius, you can relax. 67 00:07:20,349 --> 00:07:23,109 Only the worst things they say about me are true. 68 00:07:25,949 --> 00:07:27,669 I wanted to meet you in person. 69 00:07:27,709 --> 00:07:28,869 I'm glad you came. 70 00:07:28,909 --> 00:07:30,109 It's always better to discuss important matters 71 00:07:30,109 --> 00:07:30,949 It's always better to discuss important matters 72 00:07:30,989 --> 00:07:32,389 face-to-face don't you think? 73 00:07:32,429 --> 00:07:33,709 - Yes. 74 00:07:33,749 --> 00:07:36,109 - So my suggestion is that the two of us talk first 75 00:07:36,109 --> 00:07:36,709 - So my suggestion is that the two of us talk first 76 00:07:36,749 --> 00:07:40,109 one-on-one and then my colleagues can join us, everyone. 77 00:07:41,149 --> 00:07:42,109 Please have a seat. 78 00:07:42,109 --> 00:07:42,229 Please have a seat. 79 00:07:53,469 --> 00:07:54,109 I like to hear information firsthand. 80 00:07:54,109 --> 00:07:55,309 I like to hear information firsthand. 81 00:07:55,349 --> 00:07:56,869 That's the kind of person I am. 82 00:07:56,869 --> 00:07:59,869 Everybody talks, and the truth is filtered. 83 00:07:59,909 --> 00:08:00,109 Eye to eye, we can wash away any doubts 84 00:08:00,109 --> 00:08:02,349 Eye to eye, we can wash away any doubts 85 00:08:02,389 --> 00:08:03,949 we may have about one another. 86 00:08:03,949 --> 00:08:05,869 Can't I offer you anything? 87 00:08:07,669 --> 00:08:09,949 Now that we're alone, can I tempt you with a whiskey? 88 00:08:09,989 --> 00:08:11,949 - Thank you for your tempting offer. 89 00:08:11,989 --> 00:08:12,109 But the answer is still no. 90 00:08:12,109 --> 00:08:13,429 But the answer is still no. 91 00:08:13,429 --> 00:08:14,909 - How about a snack? 92 00:08:14,949 --> 00:08:15,909 We have a wonderful kitchen, 93 00:08:15,909 --> 00:08:17,269 the best chef in town at our disposal. 94 00:08:17,269 --> 00:08:18,109 He can make us whatever we want. 95 00:08:18,109 --> 00:08:18,949 He can make us whatever we want. 96 00:08:18,989 --> 00:08:20,269 - Thank you. 97 00:08:20,309 --> 00:08:21,589 - Another no. 98 00:08:21,629 --> 00:08:23,589 Very well, I hope that's the last no 99 00:08:23,629 --> 00:08:24,109 that you gave me tonight. 100 00:08:24,109 --> 00:08:25,469 that you gave me tonight. 101 00:08:25,509 --> 00:08:26,469 - And that depends. 102 00:08:26,509 --> 00:08:27,469 - [Josip] On? 103 00:08:27,509 --> 00:08:29,109 - What it is you're offering. 104 00:08:30,789 --> 00:08:33,189 - Believe it or not, I wanted to be a waiter 105 00:08:33,229 --> 00:08:34,109 when I was a boy. 106 00:08:35,149 --> 00:08:36,109 Life show me become a locksmith. 107 00:08:36,109 --> 00:08:37,109 Life show me become a locksmith. 108 00:08:38,709 --> 00:08:40,709 Ordinary people work very hard to get by. 109 00:08:40,749 --> 00:08:42,109 - Then decadence comes easy and now that you have it, 110 00:08:42,109 --> 00:08:43,309 - Then decadence comes easy and now that you have it, 111 00:08:43,349 --> 00:08:45,149 as you say, at your disposal? 112 00:08:46,349 --> 00:08:48,109 - We can't pretend not to enjoy the good side of life 113 00:08:48,109 --> 00:08:48,749 - We can't pretend not to enjoy the good side of life 114 00:08:48,789 --> 00:08:49,909 when it's offered, can we? 115 00:08:49,949 --> 00:08:51,869 - And what is good to you may not be to me 116 00:08:51,869 --> 00:08:53,029 or to someone else. 117 00:08:53,069 --> 00:08:54,109 - And you Aloysius, you're lying to yourself. 118 00:08:54,109 --> 00:08:57,389 - And you Aloysius, you're lying to yourself. 119 00:08:57,429 --> 00:08:58,789 There's not a working man out there 120 00:08:58,829 --> 00:09:00,109 who refuse what I've just offered you. 121 00:09:00,109 --> 00:09:01,029 who refuse what I've just offered you. 122 00:09:01,069 --> 00:09:04,069 - A man can easily be tented, if his belief is weak. 123 00:09:04,749 --> 00:09:06,109 - That's the one thing they said about you. 124 00:09:06,109 --> 00:09:07,349 - That's the one thing they said about you. 125 00:09:07,389 --> 00:09:09,709 Stepinac is many things, 126 00:09:09,749 --> 00:09:12,109 the courage of his convictions is unshaken. 127 00:09:12,109 --> 00:09:12,389 the courage of his convictions is unshaken. 128 00:09:12,429 --> 00:09:13,709 I wanted to serve you. 129 00:09:15,189 --> 00:09:17,549 Tito waiting on the Archbishop, 130 00:09:17,549 --> 00:09:18,109 imagine when people would say. 131 00:09:18,109 --> 00:09:19,269 imagine when people would say. 132 00:09:19,309 --> 00:09:22,349 - That there is hope even for those who may seem hopeless. 133 00:09:22,389 --> 00:09:24,109 - Yes, that may very well be the case. 134 00:09:24,109 --> 00:09:25,149 - Yes, that may very well be the case. 135 00:09:25,189 --> 00:09:26,989 - God never turns his back on us. 136 00:09:27,029 --> 00:09:29,109 Even when we turn our back on him. 137 00:09:29,149 --> 00:09:30,109 - Where do you think God goes 138 00:09:30,109 --> 00:09:31,629 - Where do you think God goes 139 00:09:32,629 --> 00:09:34,949 when war rages and innocent lives are lost? 140 00:09:34,949 --> 00:09:36,109 Is that a time when God goes on vacation. 141 00:09:36,109 --> 00:09:37,229 Is that a time when God goes on vacation. 142 00:09:37,909 --> 00:09:40,829 - To love it, to hate those are the options. 143 00:09:40,869 --> 00:09:42,109 God grants us those options, and we choose is up to us. 144 00:09:42,109 --> 00:09:44,749 God grants us those options, and we choose is up to us. 145 00:09:44,789 --> 00:09:46,909 - So war is a choice. 146 00:09:46,949 --> 00:09:48,109 - Sometimes it's unavoidable. 147 00:09:48,109 --> 00:09:49,149 - Sometimes it's unavoidable. 148 00:09:49,189 --> 00:09:50,469 People easily swayed. 149 00:09:50,509 --> 00:09:52,949 They shouldn't be, but the temptation to have 150 00:09:52,989 --> 00:09:54,109 more of everything prevailed and we lose ourselves. 151 00:09:54,109 --> 00:09:56,229 more of everything prevailed and we lose ourselves. 152 00:09:56,269 --> 00:09:57,469 - Swayed. 153 00:09:57,509 --> 00:10:00,109 The church is fairly successful in swaying the masses. 154 00:10:00,109 --> 00:10:01,149 The church is fairly successful in swaying the masses. 155 00:10:01,189 --> 00:10:02,869 Where do you think politics got their ideas 156 00:10:02,909 --> 00:10:04,229 from people in your line of work? 157 00:10:04,269 --> 00:10:06,109 - What I do is a calling not work. 158 00:10:06,109 --> 00:10:06,269 - What I do is a calling not work. 159 00:10:06,309 --> 00:10:08,269 - I'd still call it work. 160 00:10:08,309 --> 00:10:09,909 And I'd still subscribed to the idea 161 00:10:09,949 --> 00:10:11,189 that God must be on vacation, 162 00:10:11,229 --> 00:10:12,109 allowing man to become more of what he is, a rat 163 00:10:12,109 --> 00:10:14,269 allowing man to become more of what he is, a rat 164 00:10:15,109 --> 00:10:18,109 with a boundless desire to horde and destroy. 165 00:10:21,749 --> 00:10:23,589 Does smoke bother you. 166 00:10:23,629 --> 00:10:24,109 - No, it doesn't. 167 00:10:24,109 --> 00:10:25,069 - No, it doesn't. 168 00:10:25,869 --> 00:10:30,109 - I can't go very long without cigarettes and a drink. 169 00:10:30,109 --> 00:10:30,909 - I can't go very long without cigarettes and a drink. 170 00:10:30,949 --> 00:10:32,909 It's a weakness, I know a bad one. 171 00:10:32,909 --> 00:10:34,829 They taught me how to roll them in Russia, 172 00:10:34,869 --> 00:10:36,109 every single cigarette I smoke, I roll them myself. 173 00:10:36,109 --> 00:10:38,109 every single cigarette I smoke, I roll them myself. 174 00:10:38,949 --> 00:10:40,189 If I ever stopped smoking, 175 00:10:40,229 --> 00:10:42,109 I'd miss rolling these things more than smoking them. 176 00:10:42,109 --> 00:10:43,109 I'd miss rolling these things more than smoking them. 177 00:10:50,829 --> 00:10:52,109 Do you have a weakness? 178 00:10:52,909 --> 00:10:54,109 - I'm sure you know that better than me. 179 00:10:54,109 --> 00:10:55,789 - I'm sure you know that better than me. 180 00:10:55,829 --> 00:10:57,109 - A life of abstinence. 181 00:10:57,149 --> 00:11:00,109 That's a breeding ground for any number of weaknesses. 182 00:11:01,829 --> 00:11:05,829 We do have to give up our most basic needs in the Partisans. 183 00:11:05,869 --> 00:11:06,109 Four years of hunger, thirst, exhaustion, 184 00:11:06,109 --> 00:11:11,029 Four years of hunger, thirst, exhaustion, 185 00:11:11,789 --> 00:11:12,109 tramping through the forest, the plains, 186 00:11:12,109 --> 00:11:14,189 tramping through the forest, the plains, 187 00:11:14,229 --> 00:11:17,309 sleeping just a few hours if any days on end. 188 00:11:18,349 --> 00:11:22,949 It got so cold that I closed my eyes, think this is it, 189 00:11:23,629 --> 00:11:24,109 I never see the light of day again. 190 00:11:24,109 --> 00:11:25,509 I never see the light of day again. 191 00:11:28,069 --> 00:11:30,109 (eerie music) 192 00:11:30,109 --> 00:11:30,549 (eerie music) 193 00:11:41,349 --> 00:11:42,109 But I endured. 194 00:11:42,109 --> 00:11:42,749 But I endured. 195 00:11:42,789 --> 00:11:45,869 That's why nowadays I can perhaps forgive myself 196 00:11:45,909 --> 00:11:48,109 my weaknesses, because I think I earned them. 197 00:11:48,109 --> 00:11:48,269 my weaknesses, because I think I earned them. 198 00:11:48,269 --> 00:11:49,949 There's a beauty in enduring, don't you think. 199 00:11:49,989 --> 00:11:51,869 - There's beauty in the survival. 200 00:11:51,909 --> 00:11:54,109 - Yeah, but it seems to me that to endure 201 00:11:54,109 --> 00:11:54,589 - Yeah, but it seems to me that to endure 202 00:11:55,749 --> 00:11:58,949 has become synonymous with people born in this region. 203 00:11:58,949 --> 00:12:00,109 Something to be proud of. 204 00:12:00,109 --> 00:12:00,269 Something to be proud of. 205 00:12:00,309 --> 00:12:03,189 - You too are recruit like myself. 206 00:12:03,189 --> 00:12:05,069 - But I don't let it define me. 207 00:12:06,149 --> 00:12:08,109 Besides we creating a new Yugoslavia 208 00:12:08,109 --> 00:12:09,589 one that'll be more just a place 209 00:12:09,629 --> 00:12:10,829 where we can forget petty differences, 210 00:12:10,869 --> 00:12:12,109 where together we can work for the common goal, 211 00:12:12,109 --> 00:12:13,389 where together we can work for the common goal, 212 00:12:13,429 --> 00:12:14,949 equality of opportunity for all. 213 00:12:14,989 --> 00:12:16,349 - Yugoslavia failed. 214 00:12:16,349 --> 00:12:18,109 - Failed because it was ruled by a monarchy. 215 00:12:18,109 --> 00:12:18,869 - Failed because it was ruled by a monarchy. 216 00:12:18,909 --> 00:12:21,229 - It failed because the differences prevailed, 217 00:12:21,269 --> 00:12:23,429 you want to replace one decadence with a new one. 218 00:12:23,469 --> 00:12:24,109 - What comrade Stalin is doing, 219 00:12:24,109 --> 00:12:25,909 - What comrade Stalin is doing, 220 00:12:25,949 --> 00:12:28,829 what I'm doing is revolutionary. 221 00:12:28,829 --> 00:12:30,109 It's a new world, a rebirth. 222 00:12:30,109 --> 00:12:31,069 It's a new world, a rebirth. 223 00:12:32,069 --> 00:12:34,829 - If you had to put a dog, a rabbit, a donkey 224 00:12:34,869 --> 00:12:36,109 and a snake into a cage, 225 00:12:36,109 --> 00:12:36,509 and a snake into a cage, 226 00:12:36,549 --> 00:12:37,949 could you imagine they could co-exist 227 00:12:37,989 --> 00:12:39,989 without someone getting bitten? 228 00:12:40,029 --> 00:12:40,989 - That depends. 229 00:12:41,629 --> 00:12:42,109 - [Aloysius] On what? 230 00:12:42,109 --> 00:12:42,589 - [Aloysius] On what? 231 00:12:42,629 --> 00:12:44,869 - On how deadly the snake's venom is. 232 00:12:44,909 --> 00:12:45,749 - That's not what I asked. 233 00:12:45,789 --> 00:12:47,509 - I understood you very well. 234 00:12:48,429 --> 00:12:51,389 Yes, there is a risk of failure, but we must try it. 235 00:12:51,429 --> 00:12:54,109 - Try, yes, but we must learn from our mistakes. 236 00:12:54,109 --> 00:12:54,669 - Try, yes, but we must learn from our mistakes. 237 00:12:54,709 --> 00:12:55,949 - Certainly. 238 00:12:55,949 --> 00:12:58,869 Why don't you go first, Aloysius. 239 00:12:58,909 --> 00:13:00,109 - The wish of Christ to have their land 240 00:13:00,109 --> 00:13:00,309 - The wish of Christ to have their land 241 00:13:00,349 --> 00:13:01,829 came at a high expense. 242 00:13:01,869 --> 00:13:03,109 - Very highest, I'd say. 243 00:13:04,109 --> 00:13:06,109 There isn't a tree wide enough in the forest 244 00:13:06,109 --> 00:13:06,949 There isn't a tree wide enough in the forest 245 00:13:06,989 --> 00:13:08,789 to hide you from your sins. 246 00:13:08,829 --> 00:13:11,469 And doesn't the Bible say we must pay for our sins. 247 00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:12,109 - This war was just one of many calvaries 248 00:13:12,109 --> 00:13:13,509 - This war was just one of many calvaries 249 00:13:13,549 --> 00:13:16,949 in the thousand year history of the creation of people, 250 00:13:16,949 --> 00:13:18,109 we will pay for our sins. 251 00:13:18,109 --> 00:13:18,989 we will pay for our sins. 252 00:13:19,029 --> 00:13:20,389 We will repent. 253 00:13:20,429 --> 00:13:21,789 The rest is up to God. 254 00:13:22,869 --> 00:13:24,109 - One night, not too long ago 255 00:13:24,109 --> 00:13:25,309 - One night, not too long ago 256 00:13:25,349 --> 00:13:27,829 when my battalion hit inside of Bosnian cave, 257 00:13:27,869 --> 00:13:30,109 an elite unit of German parachuters surrounded us. 258 00:13:30,109 --> 00:13:31,349 an elite unit of German parachuters surrounded us. 259 00:13:31,389 --> 00:13:32,589 They had us. 260 00:13:33,949 --> 00:13:36,109 (dramatic suspenseful music) 261 00:13:36,109 --> 00:13:37,989 (dramatic suspenseful music) 262 00:14:53,589 --> 00:14:54,109 I may seem Godless to you, 263 00:14:54,109 --> 00:14:56,069 I may seem Godless to you, 264 00:14:56,869 --> 00:15:00,109 but that night something not of this earth saved me. 265 00:15:00,109 --> 00:15:00,629 but that night something not of this earth saved me. 266 00:15:01,229 --> 00:15:03,589 - [Aloysius] Yet you refuse to give God credit. 267 00:15:03,589 --> 00:15:04,829 - God or fate. 268 00:15:04,869 --> 00:15:06,109 - Maybe God and faith make fate easily acceptable. 269 00:15:06,109 --> 00:15:08,229 - Maybe God and faith make fate easily acceptable. 270 00:15:08,269 --> 00:15:11,429 - And maybe it was just chance, destiny. 271 00:15:14,709 --> 00:15:17,469 (dramatic music) 272 00:15:50,349 --> 00:15:52,589 You and I could have been very different. 273 00:15:52,629 --> 00:15:54,109 - It well very well may be. 274 00:15:54,109 --> 00:15:54,429 - It well very well may be. 275 00:15:54,469 --> 00:15:57,309 - You were trusted to getting married than I was. 276 00:15:57,349 --> 00:15:59,189 - I find that hard to believe. 277 00:16:02,989 --> 00:16:04,349 - Marija Horovat. 278 00:16:06,189 --> 00:16:08,949 (eerie music) 279 00:16:17,389 --> 00:16:18,109 Proposing without ever speaking a word to her. 280 00:16:18,109 --> 00:16:21,309 Proposing without ever speaking a word to her. 281 00:16:22,349 --> 00:16:24,069 That takes courage. 282 00:16:52,109 --> 00:16:53,429 I'd consider my chances better 283 00:16:53,429 --> 00:16:54,109 by going back to that cave and the German 284 00:16:54,109 --> 00:16:55,229 by going back to that cave and the German 285 00:16:55,269 --> 00:16:58,069 than asking a woman to marry me just like that. 286 00:16:58,869 --> 00:17:00,109 You have no idea of what it is to speak to women 287 00:17:00,109 --> 00:17:01,069 You have no idea of what it is to speak to women 288 00:17:01,109 --> 00:17:03,989 when you blindly ask one to marry just like that. 289 00:17:04,029 --> 00:17:05,109 - Foolish. 290 00:17:05,789 --> 00:17:06,109 - [Josip] To say the least. 291 00:17:06,109 --> 00:17:06,989 - [Josip] To say the least. 292 00:17:08,029 --> 00:17:12,109 - I had faith, but I was very young, and she was- 293 00:17:12,109 --> 00:17:13,189 - I had faith, but I was very young, and she was- 294 00:17:13,349 --> 00:17:14,429 - Beautiful. 295 00:17:15,949 --> 00:17:17,029 - And kind. 296 00:17:18,029 --> 00:17:18,109 - I'm sure. 297 00:17:18,109 --> 00:17:19,029 - I'm sure. 298 00:17:20,029 --> 00:17:22,069 But beauty is what catches the eye. 299 00:17:22,909 --> 00:17:24,109 You are allowed to say it, Aloysius. 300 00:17:24,109 --> 00:17:25,149 You are allowed to say it, Aloysius. 301 00:17:27,549 --> 00:17:30,109 - She was, very much so. 302 00:17:30,109 --> 00:17:30,509 - She was, very much so. 303 00:17:35,069 --> 00:17:36,029 - We're human, 304 00:17:37,749 --> 00:17:40,989 to deprive ourselves of what makes us human is inhuman. 305 00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:42,109 That's why I can't agree with what the church does 306 00:17:42,109 --> 00:17:42,949 That's why I can't agree with what the church does 307 00:17:42,989 --> 00:17:43,909 to people like you. 308 00:17:43,949 --> 00:17:44,709 - Freewill. 309 00:17:44,709 --> 00:17:47,549 - An imposed idea of freewill 310 00:17:47,589 --> 00:17:48,109 does have a concept of God they portray 311 00:17:48,109 --> 00:17:49,669 does have a concept of God they portray 312 00:17:49,709 --> 00:17:52,309 when in fact the thought that God ever existed 313 00:17:52,349 --> 00:17:53,869 is irrational. 314 00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:54,109 The Vatican asks a great deal of you, 315 00:17:54,109 --> 00:17:56,469 The Vatican asks a great deal of you, 316 00:17:56,469 --> 00:17:58,789 yet all they can offer in return as a nicely crafted 317 00:17:58,829 --> 00:17:59,669 fairy tale. 318 00:18:00,869 --> 00:18:05,109 You sacrifice your life. 319 00:18:05,989 --> 00:18:06,109 What did they sacrifice? 320 00:18:06,109 --> 00:18:07,749 What did they sacrifice? 321 00:18:07,789 --> 00:18:09,589 - The Catholic church has been a beacon 322 00:18:09,629 --> 00:18:11,989 in the darkest of times for us Croats. 323 00:18:12,029 --> 00:18:12,109 That's why you brought me here, isn't it? 324 00:18:12,109 --> 00:18:14,349 That's why you brought me here, isn't it? 325 00:18:14,389 --> 00:18:16,069 To have me now turn my back on the faith 326 00:18:16,109 --> 00:18:18,109 that has given me these people Everything we have, 327 00:18:18,149 --> 00:18:19,189 I will not do that. 328 00:18:19,229 --> 00:18:21,469 - No, no, no, not to your faith. 329 00:18:21,509 --> 00:18:22,949 I'd never asked you that. 330 00:18:24,789 --> 00:18:26,829 We're very similar, you and I. 331 00:18:26,869 --> 00:18:29,189 We've both come a long way to find ourselves here. 332 00:18:29,229 --> 00:18:30,109 - Yes, but I'm not your equal, let's not fool ourselves. 333 00:18:30,109 --> 00:18:32,789 - Yes, but I'm not your equal, let's not fool ourselves. 334 00:18:32,829 --> 00:18:34,109 You could do away with me. 335 00:18:36,989 --> 00:18:39,509 - That's a tempting thought, but no, 336 00:18:39,509 --> 00:18:40,869 there are too many weaknesses. 337 00:18:40,869 --> 00:18:42,109 - You've had me in a strict confinement for 17 days now. 338 00:18:42,109 --> 00:18:43,909 - You've had me in a strict confinement for 17 days now. 339 00:18:43,949 --> 00:18:45,349 I barely seen or spoken to anyone 340 00:18:45,349 --> 00:18:46,989 without your prior consent. 341 00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:48,109 What I eat is monitored. 342 00:18:48,109 --> 00:18:49,149 What I eat is monitored. 343 00:18:49,189 --> 00:18:51,949 Witnesses are not, I am your prisoner. 344 00:18:51,989 --> 00:18:54,069 - The decision to confine you was undertaken 345 00:18:54,109 --> 00:18:55,669 for certain political reasons. 346 00:18:55,709 --> 00:18:58,989 You understand that, and yet you have persistently refused, 347 00:18:58,989 --> 00:19:00,109 any meeting or conversation offered to you. 348 00:19:00,109 --> 00:19:01,029 any meeting or conversation offered to you. 349 00:19:01,069 --> 00:19:02,109 - To confine someone, 350 00:19:02,149 --> 00:19:03,629 then offer them a friendly conversation, 351 00:19:03,669 --> 00:19:06,109 it's the same as beating someone with a shovel 352 00:19:06,109 --> 00:19:06,789 it's the same as beating someone with a shovel 353 00:19:06,829 --> 00:19:08,429 and offering them help. 354 00:19:08,469 --> 00:19:10,629 - We need to come to an agreement on some issues 355 00:19:10,669 --> 00:19:12,109 regarding the future of the church in this country. 356 00:19:12,109 --> 00:19:13,149 regarding the future of the church in this country. 357 00:19:13,149 --> 00:19:14,869 It would be beneficial, in my opinion, 358 00:19:14,909 --> 00:19:17,909 if we could be on the same page, that's my hope. 359 00:19:17,949 --> 00:19:18,109 And you can speak freely here. 360 00:19:18,109 --> 00:19:19,509 And you can speak freely here. 361 00:19:19,549 --> 00:19:21,389 It's just you and me, I assure you. 362 00:19:27,829 --> 00:19:29,789 - [Aloysius] I have experienced everything imaginable 363 00:19:29,829 --> 00:19:30,109 the past several years on the various ideologies 364 00:19:30,109 --> 00:19:32,149 the past several years on the various ideologies 365 00:19:32,149 --> 00:19:34,829 that have little regard for me or the Catholic church, 366 00:19:34,869 --> 00:19:36,109 but you also need one regime sent armed soldiers 367 00:19:36,109 --> 00:19:37,589 but you also need one regime sent armed soldiers 368 00:19:37,629 --> 00:19:40,869 and police into our court, arrested me 369 00:19:40,909 --> 00:19:42,109 and confiscated church property. 370 00:19:42,109 --> 00:19:42,509 and confiscated church property. 371 00:19:45,949 --> 00:19:47,629 - What did the army take? 372 00:19:47,629 --> 00:19:48,109 - A month ago, as I entered court, 373 00:19:48,109 --> 00:19:49,429 - A month ago, as I entered court, 374 00:19:50,189 --> 00:19:52,109 your soldiers took my car and our telephone. 375 00:19:52,149 --> 00:19:54,109 - The war didn't end with the liberation of Zagreb. 376 00:19:54,109 --> 00:19:54,749 - The war didn't end with the liberation of Zagreb. 377 00:19:54,789 --> 00:19:56,789 In Asia Japan continues to resist. 378 00:19:56,829 --> 00:19:57,869 - It's over in Europe. 379 00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:59,549 - Yes, but we still have unresolved issues 380 00:19:59,549 --> 00:20:00,109 to settle with the British and the Americans. 381 00:20:00,109 --> 00:20:01,709 to settle with the British and the Americans. 382 00:20:01,749 --> 00:20:04,069 This region remains a powder keg. 383 00:20:07,309 --> 00:20:08,789 Have the officer come in. 384 00:20:14,829 --> 00:20:16,109 - At your command, Comrade Marshall. 385 00:20:16,149 --> 00:20:17,869 - I want the car or the telephone returned 386 00:20:17,869 --> 00:20:18,109 to the Archbishop immediately with an apology 387 00:20:18,109 --> 00:20:20,669 to the Archbishop immediately with an apology 388 00:20:20,669 --> 00:20:21,789 from the soldiers responsible. 389 00:20:21,789 --> 00:20:23,229 - Yes, sir, Comrade Marshall. 390 00:20:29,149 --> 00:20:30,109 - Until our national governance has settled in Zagreb, 391 00:20:30,109 --> 00:20:31,949 - Until our national governance has settled in Zagreb, 392 00:20:31,989 --> 00:20:35,029 it's better for you to stay in your residence at Capitol. 393 00:20:35,069 --> 00:20:36,109 You don't want to move around too much. 394 00:20:36,109 --> 00:20:36,869 You don't want to move around too much. 395 00:20:36,869 --> 00:20:38,509 I'm telling you this for your own safety. 396 00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:40,269 - The safety of my priests in federal country 397 00:20:40,309 --> 00:20:41,749 is most important to me. 398 00:20:41,789 --> 00:20:42,109 I don't care for my own safety. 399 00:20:42,109 --> 00:20:43,829 I don't care for my own safety. 400 00:20:43,869 --> 00:20:46,549 - This bloody war has endangered everybody's safety, 401 00:20:46,589 --> 00:20:47,709 and we didn't start it. 402 00:20:47,749 --> 00:20:48,109 - The people who are subject to new insecurities 403 00:20:48,109 --> 00:20:49,829 - The people who are subject to new insecurities 404 00:20:49,829 --> 00:20:52,069 fear and even vengeance after this victory 405 00:20:52,109 --> 00:20:53,669 Yugos presented. 406 00:20:53,709 --> 00:20:54,109 Then the army hasn't brought security. 407 00:20:54,109 --> 00:20:55,109 Then the army hasn't brought security. 408 00:20:55,149 --> 00:20:56,509 - What does that suppose to mean? 409 00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:59,269 - When the victors seek vengeance against unarmed people, 410 00:20:59,309 --> 00:21:00,109 the seeds of a new covert resistance are planted. 411 00:21:00,109 --> 00:21:02,389 the seeds of a new covert resistance are planted. 412 00:21:03,109 --> 00:21:04,989 And then the war never ends. 413 00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:06,109 The circle isn't closed, it just widens. 414 00:21:06,109 --> 00:21:07,109 The circle isn't closed, it just widens. 415 00:21:07,149 --> 00:21:10,829 - And what are these unarmed people, as you say? 416 00:21:11,429 --> 00:21:12,109 Are keeping hiding weapons to use 417 00:21:12,109 --> 00:21:14,949 Are keeping hiding weapons to use 418 00:21:14,949 --> 00:21:16,829 for some future resistance? 419 00:21:16,869 --> 00:21:18,109 We will crush such a rogue elements without mercy. 420 00:21:18,109 --> 00:21:20,429 We will crush such a rogue elements without mercy. 421 00:21:20,429 --> 00:21:22,429 - War has brought too much death and cruelty 422 00:21:22,469 --> 00:21:24,109 for anyone to wish it for another, 423 00:21:24,109 --> 00:21:24,589 for anyone to wish it for another, 424 00:21:24,629 --> 00:21:26,789 but organizing units to fight after the war 425 00:21:26,829 --> 00:21:29,029 turns the country into a military police state, 426 00:21:29,069 --> 00:21:30,109 not a democratic one. 427 00:21:30,109 --> 00:21:30,669 not a democratic one. 428 00:21:30,709 --> 00:21:33,109 Many soldiers have failed in the past because of this. 429 00:21:33,149 --> 00:21:35,029 And similar ones will disappear in the future. 430 00:21:35,069 --> 00:21:36,109 - It's not very nice or fair to compare us to the fascist. 431 00:21:36,109 --> 00:21:39,269 - It's not very nice or fair to compare us to the fascist. 432 00:21:39,309 --> 00:21:41,749 - I'm only referring to the principles of peace 433 00:21:41,789 --> 00:21:42,109 as written in the Bible. 434 00:21:42,109 --> 00:21:43,069 as written in the Bible. 435 00:21:43,069 --> 00:21:45,749 Whoever lives by the sword dies by the sword. 436 00:21:45,749 --> 00:21:47,669 - If the allies had followed those principles, 437 00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:48,109 Hitler would still be in power. 438 00:21:48,109 --> 00:21:48,829 Hitler would still be in power. 439 00:21:48,869 --> 00:21:50,829 - The church has been preaching these principles 440 00:21:50,869 --> 00:21:53,709 for 2000 years, regardless of individuals or nations. 441 00:21:53,749 --> 00:21:54,109 - Mankind, wouldn't get anywhere with prayers 442 00:21:54,109 --> 00:21:56,469 - Mankind, wouldn't get anywhere with prayers 443 00:21:56,509 --> 00:21:59,789 and listening to sermons of so-called forgiveness and peace. 444 00:21:59,829 --> 00:22:00,109 - The worst past traveled are those that are progressed 445 00:22:00,109 --> 00:22:01,949 - The worst past traveled are those that are progressed 446 00:22:01,949 --> 00:22:03,909 using violence, weapons and hatred. 447 00:22:03,949 --> 00:22:06,109 - Archbishop, you have to be realistic. 448 00:22:06,109 --> 00:22:06,509 - Archbishop, you have to be realistic. 449 00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:08,949 The rule is whether you like it or not, 450 00:22:08,989 --> 00:22:10,429 the stronger set the term. 451 00:22:10,469 --> 00:22:11,829 - Those beliefs have brought the world, 452 00:22:11,869 --> 00:22:12,109 the greatest and bloodiest massacres of the 20th century. 453 00:22:12,109 --> 00:22:15,109 the greatest and bloodiest massacres of the 20th century. 454 00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:18,109 - The Russians had no other choice in 1917. 455 00:22:18,109 --> 00:22:20,029 - The Russians had no other choice in 1917. 456 00:22:20,069 --> 00:22:23,629 I witnessed it personally, I know you did too. 457 00:22:23,669 --> 00:22:24,109 The war chaos, the feudal Lords, 458 00:22:24,109 --> 00:22:26,909 The war chaos, the feudal Lords, 459 00:22:26,949 --> 00:22:28,829 they were destroying the people. 460 00:22:28,869 --> 00:22:30,109 That's why the October revolution broke out. 461 00:22:30,109 --> 00:22:31,309 That's why the October revolution broke out. 462 00:22:31,349 --> 00:22:33,469 - It broke out due to despair. 463 00:22:33,469 --> 00:22:35,389 Revolutions happen when the desperate grasping 464 00:22:35,389 --> 00:22:36,109 out for all possible straws to save themselves, 465 00:22:36,109 --> 00:22:37,749 out for all possible straws to save themselves, 466 00:22:37,789 --> 00:22:40,269 than a time to change, self-proclaimed politicians 467 00:22:40,309 --> 00:22:42,109 and so-called ideology show making empty promises, 468 00:22:42,109 --> 00:22:43,109 and so-called ideology show making empty promises, 469 00:22:43,149 --> 00:22:44,789 imposing themselves on the people like gods. 470 00:22:44,829 --> 00:22:48,109 - Well, even the gods can't help, then what can be done? 471 00:22:48,109 --> 00:22:48,629 - Well, even the gods can't help, then what can be done? 472 00:22:48,669 --> 00:22:50,909 - There are no earthly divinities. 473 00:22:50,909 --> 00:22:52,709 Christianity is the seed of faith, 474 00:22:52,749 --> 00:22:54,109 it's sprouted the blood of Jesus Christ. 475 00:22:54,109 --> 00:22:54,269 it's sprouted the blood of Jesus Christ. 476 00:22:54,309 --> 00:22:58,509 - Christianity is a thing of the distant past, Archbishop. 477 00:22:58,549 --> 00:23:00,109 New social communities call for practical ways of living. 478 00:23:00,109 --> 00:23:01,549 New social communities call for practical ways of living. 479 00:23:01,589 --> 00:23:03,229 - There are no greater practical formulas 480 00:23:03,229 --> 00:23:06,109 without spiritual balance, virality and faith in God. 481 00:23:06,109 --> 00:23:06,349 without spiritual balance, virality and faith in God. 482 00:23:06,349 --> 00:23:08,429 The Russians will realize this. 483 00:23:08,469 --> 00:23:09,829 Everybody does. 484 00:23:09,869 --> 00:23:11,629 - The means of production will be turned over 485 00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:12,109 to the workers, peacefully or by force. 486 00:23:12,109 --> 00:23:15,509 to the workers, peacefully or by force. 487 00:23:15,549 --> 00:23:17,429 The October revolution continues to move on. 488 00:23:17,469 --> 00:23:18,109 It'll give birth to a happier more just world order. 489 00:23:18,109 --> 00:23:21,109 It'll give birth to a happier more just world order. 490 00:23:21,149 --> 00:23:23,069 - That's just an assumption. 491 00:23:23,069 --> 00:23:24,109 It's hard to say what's worse. 492 00:23:24,109 --> 00:23:24,629 It's hard to say what's worse. 493 00:23:24,669 --> 00:23:25,829 War or revolution. 494 00:23:25,869 --> 00:23:28,029 - What a peaceful transition is, not the horiz, 495 00:23:28,069 --> 00:23:29,229 you've got to get rough. 496 00:23:29,269 --> 00:23:30,109 - Who has the right to impose an ideology of rule 497 00:23:30,109 --> 00:23:31,709 - Who has the right to impose an ideology of rule 498 00:23:31,749 --> 00:23:34,069 by force on the land, in the name of what? 499 00:23:34,109 --> 00:23:36,109 - If the feudal lords and the bourgeoisie 500 00:23:36,109 --> 00:23:36,669 - If the feudal lords and the bourgeoisie 501 00:23:36,709 --> 00:23:39,229 hadn't opposed everybody in their path, 502 00:23:39,269 --> 00:23:40,749 the revolution wouldn't have happened. 503 00:23:40,789 --> 00:23:42,109 It was a historical necessity realized 504 00:23:42,109 --> 00:23:42,749 It was a historical necessity realized 505 00:23:42,789 --> 00:23:43,989 by Lenin and the Bolsheviks. 506 00:23:44,029 --> 00:23:47,029 Any system that begins with death ends with death. 507 00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:48,109 - A certain dictatorship of the proletariat 508 00:23:48,109 --> 00:23:49,909 - A certain dictatorship of the proletariat 509 00:23:49,949 --> 00:23:51,349 is unavoidable in the first phase. 510 00:23:51,389 --> 00:23:53,429 - Church doesn't neglect social issues either, 511 00:23:53,469 --> 00:23:54,109 it has its teachings. 512 00:23:54,109 --> 00:23:54,869 it has its teachings. 513 00:23:54,869 --> 00:23:57,069 - All religions are an opiate for the masses, 514 00:23:57,109 --> 00:23:58,869 Marx understood that. 515 00:23:58,869 --> 00:24:00,109 - Goodness said that in the name of our nation, 516 00:24:00,109 --> 00:24:01,069 - Goodness said that in the name of our nation, 517 00:24:01,109 --> 00:24:03,869 Croatians have survived because of their unwavering 518 00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:05,149 belief in Christianity. 519 00:24:07,509 --> 00:24:10,189 - God and Croats. 520 00:24:10,229 --> 00:24:11,029 - It's a lullaby. 521 00:24:11,069 --> 00:24:12,109 - Not a lullaby. 522 00:24:12,109 --> 00:24:12,669 - Not a lullaby. 523 00:24:12,669 --> 00:24:15,189 A gent reminder, he is always by our side. 524 00:24:16,069 --> 00:24:18,109 - was God by your side, when you sided with a feudal. 525 00:24:18,109 --> 00:24:19,589 - was God by your side, when you sided with a feudal. 526 00:24:22,509 --> 00:24:23,949 - When people are desperate to have a land 527 00:24:23,949 --> 00:24:24,109 they could call their own- 528 00:24:24,109 --> 00:24:24,909 they could call their own- 529 00:24:24,949 --> 00:24:26,949 - They make a deal with the devil. 530 00:24:28,069 --> 00:24:30,109 So you failed the courage of your conviction? 531 00:24:30,109 --> 00:24:31,389 So you failed the courage of your conviction? 532 00:24:31,429 --> 00:24:33,189 - Our people were blinded by the desire 533 00:24:33,229 --> 00:24:35,549 to have a piece of land they could call their own. 534 00:24:35,589 --> 00:24:36,109 - So how are you better than those 535 00:24:36,109 --> 00:24:36,549 - So how are you better than those 536 00:24:36,589 --> 00:24:38,909 you're so reckless in criticizing? 537 00:24:38,909 --> 00:24:40,869 - The intent. - Intent? 538 00:24:41,629 --> 00:24:42,109 Intent is always there. 539 00:24:42,109 --> 00:24:43,109 Intent is always there. 540 00:24:44,309 --> 00:24:46,949 It's what lies behind, it makes a difference. 541 00:24:46,989 --> 00:24:48,109 - It's delusional to think that communism 542 00:24:48,109 --> 00:24:48,909 - It's delusional to think that communism 543 00:24:48,949 --> 00:24:51,069 is this new form of defined purity. 544 00:24:51,869 --> 00:24:53,709 In spite of technical and economic progress 545 00:24:53,709 --> 00:24:54,109 the world is still confronted with a spiritual crisis. 546 00:24:54,109 --> 00:24:56,869 the world is still confronted with a spiritual crisis. 547 00:24:56,909 --> 00:24:58,829 Christianity is being discounted by those 548 00:24:58,869 --> 00:25:00,109 who don't recognize as human and moral power. 549 00:25:00,109 --> 00:25:01,309 who don't recognize as human and moral power. 550 00:25:02,709 --> 00:25:03,989 Capitalism is a sickness, yes, 551 00:25:03,989 --> 00:25:06,109 but communism is the wrong antidote to it. 552 00:25:06,109 --> 00:25:07,389 but communism is the wrong antidote to it. 553 00:25:07,429 --> 00:25:08,869 - And why in your opinion, 554 00:25:08,869 --> 00:25:10,869 did the bloodiest revolution take place 555 00:25:10,909 --> 00:25:12,109 in a Christian country like Russia? 556 00:25:12,109 --> 00:25:12,829 in a Christian country like Russia? 557 00:25:12,869 --> 00:25:14,909 - The October revolution is the bloodiest massacre 558 00:25:14,949 --> 00:25:16,389 within a single nation in history. 559 00:25:16,429 --> 00:25:18,109 - And yet the ideas of the October evolution 560 00:25:18,109 --> 00:25:18,989 - And yet the ideas of the October evolution 561 00:25:19,029 --> 00:25:21,869 continue to inspire people far and wide. 562 00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:23,509 - But at what cost? 563 00:25:23,549 --> 00:25:24,109 The October revolution has been eating its own kind of 564 00:25:24,109 --> 00:25:25,949 The October revolution has been eating its own kind of 565 00:25:25,989 --> 00:25:26,909 from the very beginning. 566 00:25:26,909 --> 00:25:29,429 - And how has the church governed? 567 00:25:30,949 --> 00:25:34,989 Throughout history, it took up arms, staging inquisitions, 568 00:25:35,029 --> 00:25:36,109 burnings at the stake, witch hunts? 569 00:25:36,109 --> 00:25:36,909 burnings at the stake, witch hunts? 570 00:25:36,949 --> 00:25:37,989 If it wasn't for the crusades, 571 00:25:38,029 --> 00:25:39,949 you as a Christian wouldn't even exist. 572 00:25:39,949 --> 00:25:41,869 How many people have died 573 00:25:41,909 --> 00:25:42,109 so you could call yourself a Christian? 574 00:25:42,109 --> 00:25:43,869 so you could call yourself a Christian? 575 00:25:43,869 --> 00:25:46,669 - I cannot undo the mistakes of the past. 576 00:25:46,669 --> 00:25:48,029 - Ah, the self-righteous way in which you 577 00:25:48,029 --> 00:25:48,109 give an excuse for any number of sins committed by those 578 00:25:48,109 --> 00:25:50,829 give an excuse for any number of sins committed by those 579 00:25:50,829 --> 00:25:52,269 you yourself are governed by. 580 00:25:52,269 --> 00:25:53,429 It's amazing to me. 581 00:25:53,469 --> 00:25:54,109 - The church has always succeeded in renewing itself 582 00:25:54,109 --> 00:25:56,149 - The church has always succeeded in renewing itself 583 00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:58,669 by cleansing his soul, confessing his sins 584 00:25:58,709 --> 00:26:00,109 and calling unconscious and faith in the almighty. 585 00:26:00,109 --> 00:26:00,749 and calling unconscious and faith in the almighty. 586 00:26:00,789 --> 00:26:02,829 - It's fairly easy to confess your sins 587 00:26:02,869 --> 00:26:04,389 when you know, there are no repercussions. 588 00:26:04,429 --> 00:26:06,109 - There are always repercussions. 589 00:26:06,109 --> 00:26:06,509 - There are always repercussions. 590 00:26:06,549 --> 00:26:10,829 Besides the churches enjoyed for 2000 years, Roman emperor, 591 00:26:10,869 --> 00:26:12,109 various political leaders, SARS, ideologies 592 00:26:12,109 --> 00:26:13,669 various political leaders, SARS, ideologies 593 00:26:13,709 --> 00:26:15,629 have all come and gone. 594 00:26:15,669 --> 00:26:16,909 The church remains. 595 00:26:17,669 --> 00:26:18,109 - Our great revolutionary from the 16th century, 596 00:26:18,109 --> 00:26:20,789 - Our great revolutionary from the 16th century, 597 00:26:20,829 --> 00:26:23,469 the leader of the peasant rebellion, Matea Gilberts, 598 00:26:23,509 --> 00:26:24,109 he was captured by the feudal powers and here in Zagreb, 599 00:26:24,109 --> 00:26:26,069 he was captured by the feudal powers and here in Zagreb, 600 00:26:26,109 --> 00:26:27,509 not far from where we are, 601 00:26:27,549 --> 00:26:30,109 they placed a fiery crown of red hot iron on his head. 602 00:26:30,109 --> 00:26:30,989 they placed a fiery crown of red hot iron on his head. 603 00:26:30,989 --> 00:26:33,789 And that happened with the blessing of Bishop Blagsovich. 604 00:26:33,829 --> 00:26:34,629 - Yes. 605 00:26:34,669 --> 00:26:35,869 The church was weak at that time, 606 00:26:35,869 --> 00:26:36,109 and under the influence of powerful foreigners. 607 00:26:36,109 --> 00:26:37,949 and under the influence of powerful foreigners. 608 00:26:37,989 --> 00:26:39,869 Had I been the Bishop, I would have asked for a crown 609 00:26:39,909 --> 00:26:41,989 made of gold to be placed on his head. 610 00:26:42,029 --> 00:26:42,109 - And then you would have gotten the same treatment. 611 00:26:42,109 --> 00:26:43,989 - And then you would have gotten the same treatment. 612 00:26:44,029 --> 00:26:45,869 Their kindness would have escaped you. 613 00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:48,109 - And, what do we gain from living a few more years 614 00:26:48,109 --> 00:26:48,829 - And, what do we gain from living a few more years 615 00:26:48,829 --> 00:26:50,149 if those years are given to us? 616 00:26:50,189 --> 00:26:53,309 Because we had just to come to a system written with lies. 617 00:26:54,269 --> 00:26:58,309 - Equality, and care for others, 618 00:26:58,349 --> 00:27:00,029 that is what I'm striving for. 619 00:27:00,949 --> 00:27:02,909 Communism is not opiate for the masses. 620 00:27:02,949 --> 00:27:05,829 Communism is the ideal of how one should live. 621 00:27:05,869 --> 00:27:06,109 - The first Christian communities 2000 years ago 622 00:27:06,109 --> 00:27:08,069 - The first Christian communities 2000 years ago 623 00:27:08,109 --> 00:27:11,309 were equal in classes for all, men and women. 624 00:27:11,349 --> 00:27:12,109 Simple said, do not mistreat thy slave 625 00:27:12,109 --> 00:27:13,829 Simple said, do not mistreat thy slave 626 00:27:13,869 --> 00:27:15,109 for he's thy brought up. 627 00:27:16,629 --> 00:27:18,109 - Why do you speak of this theory? 628 00:27:18,109 --> 00:27:18,829 - Why do you speak of this theory? 629 00:27:18,869 --> 00:27:21,789 Communists are the first ones to begin resolving things 630 00:27:21,829 --> 00:27:24,109 in a practical manner where nobody's brother is his slave. 631 00:27:24,109 --> 00:27:25,189 in a practical manner where nobody's brother is his slave. 632 00:27:25,229 --> 00:27:27,829 - By tricking people into thinking they're perfect, 633 00:27:27,869 --> 00:27:28,869 flawless. 634 00:27:28,909 --> 00:27:30,109 The first for money, power and luxury 635 00:27:30,109 --> 00:27:30,749 The first for money, power and luxury 636 00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:32,189 has clouded the minds of many. 637 00:27:32,229 --> 00:27:34,509 You speak of the bourgeoisie that was. 638 00:27:35,229 --> 00:27:36,109 Where we're sitting right now? 639 00:27:36,109 --> 00:27:36,829 Where we're sitting right now? 640 00:27:36,869 --> 00:27:40,429 Is this the residence of a humble servant to the people? 641 00:27:40,469 --> 00:27:41,709 - Is yours? 642 00:27:43,229 --> 00:27:45,909 You must stop make a house in my name. 643 00:27:45,949 --> 00:27:47,189 Doesn't that remind you of someone? 644 00:27:47,189 --> 00:27:48,109 Come on now, Aloysius you're not a stupid man. 645 00:27:48,109 --> 00:27:49,709 Come on now, Aloysius you're not a stupid man. 646 00:27:50,789 --> 00:27:54,109 Somewhere deep down inside you must've thought 647 00:27:54,109 --> 00:27:55,349 Somewhere deep down inside you must've thought 648 00:27:55,349 --> 00:27:58,109 is the sacrifice of mine worth it? 649 00:28:03,509 --> 00:28:06,109 You know that I know everything there is to know about you. 650 00:28:06,109 --> 00:28:06,829 You know that I know everything there is to know about you. 651 00:28:09,669 --> 00:28:12,109 But at night when all this dark, 652 00:28:12,109 --> 00:28:13,749 But at night when all this dark, 653 00:28:13,789 --> 00:28:18,109 and our thoughts belong to ourselves, does your mind wonder? 654 00:28:18,109 --> 00:28:19,109 and our thoughts belong to ourselves, does your mind wonder? 655 00:28:25,589 --> 00:28:28,029 You never saw Marija again. 656 00:28:30,749 --> 00:28:31,629 - No. 657 00:28:34,029 --> 00:28:35,629 - Do you think of her? 658 00:28:36,669 --> 00:28:39,109 - I allow myself the privilege to wonder, yes. 659 00:28:40,909 --> 00:28:42,109 - Do you allow yourself, and would the church 660 00:28:42,109 --> 00:28:44,589 - Do you allow yourself, and would the church 661 00:28:44,629 --> 00:28:45,749 want you to wonder? 662 00:28:48,709 --> 00:28:51,949 Our thoughts belong only to us as to our secrets. 663 00:28:53,069 --> 00:28:54,109 Why did you ask her to marry you 664 00:28:54,109 --> 00:28:56,189 Why did you ask her to marry you 665 00:28:56,229 --> 00:28:58,269 when you'd never spoken a word to her? 666 00:28:59,629 --> 00:29:00,109 - Why do you care to know. 667 00:29:00,109 --> 00:29:01,429 - Why do you care to know. 668 00:29:01,429 --> 00:29:04,069 - Asking a woman for her hand in marriage 669 00:29:04,069 --> 00:29:05,189 without knowing her. 670 00:29:07,469 --> 00:29:12,109 Her accepting and you abruptly deciding to enter priesthood, 671 00:29:12,109 --> 00:29:12,709 Her accepting and you abruptly deciding to enter priesthood, 672 00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:18,109 it's perplexing. 673 00:29:18,109 --> 00:29:18,389 it's perplexing. 674 00:29:20,709 --> 00:29:23,189 - It was not the life that I wanted in the end. 675 00:29:24,989 --> 00:29:26,269 - As simple as that? 676 00:29:26,309 --> 00:29:27,149 - Yes. 677 00:29:28,869 --> 00:29:30,109 - But you wondered how life might have fared 678 00:29:30,109 --> 00:29:31,949 - But you wondered how life might have fared 679 00:29:31,989 --> 00:29:33,269 if you'd chosen to marry. 680 00:29:34,349 --> 00:29:36,109 - And I would not be here sitting with you. 681 00:29:36,109 --> 00:29:36,229 - And I would not be here sitting with you. 682 00:29:36,269 --> 00:29:38,109 - Maybe he'd be on the side I'm on, 683 00:29:39,349 --> 00:29:42,109 fighting the good fight and not sitting across from me, 684 00:29:42,109 --> 00:29:42,349 fighting the good fight and not sitting across from me, 685 00:29:42,389 --> 00:29:43,589 giving me a headache. 686 00:29:43,629 --> 00:29:45,989 - Then you might be in my position. 687 00:29:46,029 --> 00:29:47,189 - A priest, never. 688 00:29:48,269 --> 00:29:50,949 I love life too much to take so much away from it. 689 00:29:50,949 --> 00:29:52,269 - Is that what you think we do to ourselves. 690 00:29:52,309 --> 00:29:54,109 - To not live life fully, to have a family, 691 00:29:54,109 --> 00:29:55,589 - To not live life fully, to have a family, 692 00:29:56,269 --> 00:29:57,869 a life without my children, 693 00:29:57,909 --> 00:29:59,269 to feel the warmth of a woman's touch? 694 00:29:59,269 --> 00:30:00,109 No. 695 00:30:00,109 --> 00:30:00,549 No. 696 00:30:00,589 --> 00:30:03,189 I'd rather die than deprive myself for such a feeling. 697 00:30:03,229 --> 00:30:05,789 - Our fulfillment comes from serving others. 698 00:30:06,989 --> 00:30:09,109 You've never kissed a woman. 699 00:30:10,069 --> 00:30:11,349 - No. 700 00:30:11,389 --> 00:30:12,109 - [Josip] Never. 701 00:30:12,109 --> 00:30:12,669 - [Josip] Never. 702 00:30:12,669 --> 00:30:13,789 - No. 703 00:30:13,789 --> 00:30:16,669 - Then by God, you must have a drink with me. 704 00:30:16,669 --> 00:30:18,109 - Thank you, but the answer is still no. 705 00:30:18,109 --> 00:30:18,509 - Thank you, but the answer is still no. 706 00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:20,309 - Then I shall drink in your name. 707 00:30:44,069 --> 00:30:45,949 (soft music) 708 00:30:45,989 --> 00:30:48,109 "My dearest, Aloysius, 709 00:30:48,109 --> 00:30:48,189 "My dearest, Aloysius, 710 00:31:02,389 --> 00:31:04,949 your statement surprised me greatly. 711 00:31:04,989 --> 00:31:06,109 And now that I've thought it over, my response is..." 712 00:31:06,109 --> 00:31:08,589 And now that I've thought it over, my response is..." 713 00:31:09,149 --> 00:31:12,109 And she goes on in further details, I'm sure you remember 714 00:31:12,109 --> 00:31:12,669 And she goes on in further details, I'm sure you remember 715 00:31:15,989 --> 00:31:17,109 Would like to keep it? 716 00:31:22,069 --> 00:31:24,109 You made quite an impression on the young woman. 717 00:31:24,109 --> 00:31:24,869 You made quite an impression on the young woman. 718 00:31:27,949 --> 00:31:29,949 Despite the lack of conversation. 719 00:31:30,629 --> 00:31:32,909 John Kwan would be jealous, I'm jealous. 720 00:31:34,829 --> 00:31:36,109 Perhaps you can teach me, give me some pointers. 721 00:31:36,109 --> 00:31:38,749 Perhaps you can teach me, give me some pointers. 722 00:31:38,789 --> 00:31:40,429 - That is a lifelong gone now. 723 00:31:41,229 --> 00:31:42,109 - Remind me, what came of Marija? 724 00:31:42,109 --> 00:31:46,029 - Remind me, what came of Marija? 725 00:31:52,029 --> 00:31:54,109 (soft music) 726 00:31:54,109 --> 00:31:54,469 (soft music) 727 00:34:00,989 --> 00:34:02,309 Who do you think took her? 728 00:34:03,989 --> 00:34:06,109 God or you don't know? 729 00:34:07,229 --> 00:34:10,909 - As I said, we we're given options, we pick one, 730 00:34:10,949 --> 00:34:12,109 consequences are there to be endured. 731 00:34:12,109 --> 00:34:12,949 consequences are there to be endured. 732 00:34:12,989 --> 00:34:17,469 - Of all the people on that bus, he took just her. 733 00:34:20,749 --> 00:34:21,989 Doesn't that make you- 734 00:34:22,029 --> 00:34:22,869 - Yes. 735 00:34:27,029 --> 00:34:28,109 - Furious? 736 00:34:30,709 --> 00:34:33,829 (suspenseful music) 737 00:35:33,229 --> 00:35:35,709 - I prayed for her soul every day since. 738 00:35:35,749 --> 00:35:36,109 - Why? 739 00:35:36,109 --> 00:35:36,909 - Why? 740 00:35:36,949 --> 00:35:38,229 - Hoping she'd forgive me. 741 00:35:38,229 --> 00:35:39,949 - Did you forgive yourself? 742 00:35:39,949 --> 00:35:41,989 She knows why I chose my path. 743 00:35:42,029 --> 00:35:42,109 Everything that happened after it is God's will. 744 00:35:42,109 --> 00:35:44,749 Everything that happened after it is God's will. 745 00:35:44,789 --> 00:35:46,029 - All right. 746 00:35:46,029 --> 00:35:48,109 So it must be God's will that good conquered evil 747 00:35:48,109 --> 00:35:48,909 So it must be God's will that good conquered evil 748 00:35:48,949 --> 00:35:49,909 in this world? 749 00:35:49,949 --> 00:35:51,749 - Good must prevail whatever the cost. 750 00:35:51,789 --> 00:35:53,509 - And who's responsible for that? 751 00:35:54,829 --> 00:35:56,789 Must I beg you for some credit? 752 00:35:56,829 --> 00:35:58,589 - You've only just begun, 753 00:35:58,629 --> 00:36:00,109 and I would not feel optimistic based on what I've seen. 754 00:36:00,109 --> 00:36:01,029 and I would not feel optimistic based on what I've seen. 755 00:36:01,069 --> 00:36:04,029 - The world without Hitler, Mussolini, 756 00:36:04,709 --> 00:36:06,109 and that despicable Ustase fascist, Pavelic, is safer? 757 00:36:06,109 --> 00:36:09,309 and that despicable Ustase fascist, Pavelic, is safer? 758 00:36:10,909 --> 00:36:12,109 - Yes, but that depends what follows. 759 00:36:12,109 --> 00:36:13,869 - Yes, but that depends what follows. 760 00:36:13,909 --> 00:36:16,269 - You deny the past, you fear the future. 761 00:36:16,269 --> 00:36:17,949 How can the present ever be good enough? 762 00:36:17,989 --> 00:36:18,109 - I don't deny a thing. 763 00:36:18,109 --> 00:36:19,229 - I don't deny a thing. 764 00:36:19,269 --> 00:36:20,949 I openly opposed the war and the occupation 765 00:36:20,989 --> 00:36:22,829 in the cathedral in front of everyone. 766 00:36:22,869 --> 00:36:24,109 I protested against the injustice, and inhumanity. 767 00:36:24,109 --> 00:36:25,749 I protested against the injustice, and inhumanity. 768 00:36:25,789 --> 00:36:27,749 Condemn the killing and degregation of everyone, 769 00:36:27,789 --> 00:36:29,869 regardless of race, religion, and nationality, 770 00:36:29,909 --> 00:36:30,109 I protect and saved as many as I could. 771 00:36:30,109 --> 00:36:31,989 I protect and saved as many as I could. 772 00:36:31,989 --> 00:36:35,989 Serbs, Jews, Gypsy, Slovenians all those persecuted, 773 00:36:36,029 --> 00:36:36,109 and not just once. 774 00:36:36,109 --> 00:36:37,109 and not just once. 775 00:36:38,189 --> 00:36:39,549 - Do you have proof of that? 776 00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:41,709 - [Aloysius] Proof you and your party will deny me? 777 00:36:41,749 --> 00:36:42,109 - [Josip] For example, 778 00:36:42,109 --> 00:36:42,989 - [Josip] For example, 779 00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:46,189 - The Orthodox mission, (indistinct) asked me 780 00:36:46,229 --> 00:36:48,109 to get his brother out of a camp in (indistinct) 781 00:36:48,109 --> 00:36:49,429 to get his brother out of a camp in (indistinct) 782 00:36:49,469 --> 00:36:51,309 Pavelic unwilling you released him, 783 00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:52,869 much dear to his displeasure. 784 00:36:52,869 --> 00:36:54,109 In 1941, I succeeded in saving 157 women 785 00:36:54,109 --> 00:36:56,029 In 1941, I succeeded in saving 157 women 786 00:36:56,029 --> 00:36:57,709 who've been arrested in Klina. 787 00:36:57,749 --> 00:37:00,109 That same year I intervened to free the Calabasas Bishop. 788 00:37:00,109 --> 00:37:00,589 That same year I intervened to free the Calabasas Bishop. 789 00:37:00,629 --> 00:37:02,869 The following year in 1942 Catholic women 790 00:37:02,909 --> 00:37:04,709 asked me to intervene to save their husbands 791 00:37:04,749 --> 00:37:05,549 who were Jewish. 792 00:37:05,589 --> 00:37:06,109 I help them get their freedom. 793 00:37:06,109 --> 00:37:07,549 I help them get their freedom. 794 00:37:07,589 --> 00:37:09,229 I also saved Dr. (indistinct) 795 00:37:09,269 --> 00:37:11,029 served from persecution. 796 00:37:11,069 --> 00:37:12,109 In 1943, I think I had 24 interventions 797 00:37:12,109 --> 00:37:13,869 In 1943, I think I had 24 interventions 798 00:37:13,909 --> 00:37:16,029 on behalf of Serbs and 11 on behalf of Jews, 799 00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:18,109 you are comrade, you know who I am. 800 00:37:18,109 --> 00:37:19,109 you are comrade, you know who I am. 801 00:37:20,829 --> 00:37:21,949 If I am anything that I'm being accused of, 802 00:37:21,989 --> 00:37:24,109 now, I wouldn't be here talking with you. 803 00:37:24,109 --> 00:37:24,469 now, I wouldn't be here talking with you. 804 00:37:24,509 --> 00:37:27,069 My corpse would be long gone, buried somewhere. 805 00:37:27,869 --> 00:37:30,109 I don't have to be alive because I'm the Archbishop. 806 00:37:30,109 --> 00:37:30,149 I don't have to be alive because I'm the Archbishop. 807 00:37:30,189 --> 00:37:31,709 My title isn't saving me. 808 00:37:32,629 --> 00:37:34,349 I'm here because however much you wish 809 00:37:34,349 --> 00:37:36,109 to deny me my good deeds, 810 00:37:36,109 --> 00:37:36,349 to deny me my good deeds, 811 00:37:36,349 --> 00:37:40,109 there are, as you would say, too many witnesses to them, 812 00:37:40,869 --> 00:37:42,109 we can't all be buried at once. 813 00:37:42,109 --> 00:37:42,429 we can't all be buried at once. 814 00:37:56,549 --> 00:37:58,669 - Yes, bring me some coffee, will you. 815 00:38:06,949 --> 00:38:09,869 Priests took up arms during the war. 816 00:38:09,869 --> 00:38:12,109 You can't deny that you were aware of that. 817 00:38:12,109 --> 00:38:12,189 You can't deny that you were aware of that. 818 00:38:12,229 --> 00:38:13,829 They fought for the fascist enemy. 819 00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:16,069 - I never approved the actions of such individuals. 820 00:38:16,109 --> 00:38:18,109 On the contrary, we ex-communicated 821 00:38:18,109 --> 00:38:18,749 On the contrary, we ex-communicated 822 00:38:18,789 --> 00:38:20,189 some of them immediately. 823 00:38:20,229 --> 00:38:21,709 But let's not forget, 824 00:38:21,749 --> 00:38:23,669 a lot of them are subject to horrible torture 825 00:38:23,709 --> 00:38:24,109 at the hands of the Partisans, 826 00:38:24,109 --> 00:38:25,109 at the hands of the Partisans, 827 00:38:25,149 --> 00:38:27,749 nailed across throughout the country, skinned, burned aliv. 828 00:38:27,789 --> 00:38:30,029 Their only sin was because they served the church 829 00:38:30,069 --> 00:38:30,109 and the creation nation. 830 00:38:30,109 --> 00:38:31,549 and the creation nation. 831 00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:34,349 - It war, those are isolated cases. 832 00:38:34,389 --> 00:38:35,549 - So do we. 833 00:38:35,549 --> 00:38:36,109 Precise data on the number of murdered priests, nuns, 834 00:38:36,109 --> 00:38:37,869 Precise data on the number of murdered priests, nuns, 835 00:38:37,909 --> 00:38:40,149 and theologians and how they were tortured. 836 00:38:40,189 --> 00:38:42,109 - And what is that compared to the number of our victims? 837 00:38:42,109 --> 00:38:43,269 - And what is that compared to the number of our victims? 838 00:38:43,909 --> 00:38:45,949 - Is the number or a reason why a single life 839 00:38:45,989 --> 00:38:47,669 is lost more important. 840 00:38:47,669 --> 00:38:48,109 - They were involved in fascism. 841 00:38:48,109 --> 00:38:50,509 - They were involved in fascism. 842 00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:54,109 We, the anti-fascists we restored Croatia honor. 843 00:38:54,109 --> 00:38:56,949 We, the anti-fascists we restored Croatia honor. 844 00:38:56,949 --> 00:38:58,189 - All of the Yugoslav nations, 845 00:38:58,229 --> 00:39:00,109 not only Croatia were involved in fascism 846 00:39:00,109 --> 00:39:00,269 not only Croatia were involved in fascism 847 00:39:00,309 --> 00:39:01,349 because they had to. 848 00:39:02,109 --> 00:39:05,149 Croatians fortune is the territory it inhabits. 849 00:39:05,189 --> 00:39:06,109 For centuries it has been a place where that hatred 850 00:39:06,109 --> 00:39:07,469 For centuries it has been a place where that hatred 851 00:39:07,509 --> 00:39:09,869 between the left and the right fight is battlefiel. 852 00:39:09,909 --> 00:39:12,109 For those of us who fight in the word of God in the prayer, 853 00:39:12,109 --> 00:39:12,349 For those of us who fight in the word of God in the prayer, 854 00:39:12,389 --> 00:39:14,069 human life is paramount. 855 00:39:14,109 --> 00:39:16,109 Whichever side it's from, not death. 856 00:39:16,949 --> 00:39:18,109 What did you have in your slogan? 857 00:39:18,109 --> 00:39:18,869 What did you have in your slogan? 858 00:39:20,309 --> 00:39:21,269 - Our slogan? 859 00:39:22,949 --> 00:39:24,109 The death to evil needed to be emphasized at the time. 860 00:39:24,109 --> 00:39:26,629 The death to evil needed to be emphasized at the time. 861 00:39:26,629 --> 00:39:27,949 But along with death to fascism, 862 00:39:27,949 --> 00:39:30,109 we added freedom to the people. 863 00:39:30,109 --> 00:39:30,589 we added freedom to the people. 864 00:39:30,629 --> 00:39:32,109 - Evil is evil. 865 00:39:32,149 --> 00:39:33,989 Regardless of the ideology. 866 00:39:34,629 --> 00:39:36,109 As far as the so-called Croatian guilt, 867 00:39:36,109 --> 00:39:36,749 As far as the so-called Croatian guilt, 868 00:39:36,789 --> 00:39:38,869 it is not the first time we faced this accusation, 869 00:39:38,909 --> 00:39:41,109 and something tells me it won't be the last. 870 00:39:45,349 --> 00:39:48,109 - The historical fact remains that after the dissolution 871 00:39:48,109 --> 00:39:48,949 - The historical fact remains that after the dissolution 872 00:39:48,949 --> 00:39:51,029 of the kingdom of Yugoslavia, 873 00:39:51,069 --> 00:39:54,109 Croatia was the under Republic to declare its independence 874 00:39:54,109 --> 00:39:54,869 Croatia was the under Republic to declare its independence 875 00:39:54,909 --> 00:39:57,909 under Pavelic and take the side of Hitler 876 00:39:57,949 --> 00:39:59,989 and Mussolini during the war. 877 00:40:00,029 --> 00:40:00,109 To whatever does occur, 878 00:40:00,109 --> 00:40:01,029 To whatever does occur, 879 00:40:01,069 --> 00:40:03,109 history will never be kind to you. 880 00:40:03,149 --> 00:40:05,349 - Hitler and Mussolini just took advantage 881 00:40:05,389 --> 00:40:06,109 of the people who were desperate. 882 00:40:06,109 --> 00:40:06,709 of the people who were desperate. 883 00:40:06,749 --> 00:40:10,589 - Nobody cares about the content of your explanation. 884 00:40:10,629 --> 00:40:11,869 The headline is bad enough. 885 00:40:11,869 --> 00:40:12,109 - To have a state at any cost, that was the wish. 886 00:40:12,109 --> 00:40:14,589 - To have a state at any cost, that was the wish. 887 00:40:14,629 --> 00:40:16,749 The price we have paid on one we are destined 888 00:40:16,789 --> 00:40:18,109 to pay over time will be severe, but we must face it. 889 00:40:18,109 --> 00:40:19,909 to pay over time will be severe, but we must face it. 890 00:40:19,949 --> 00:40:22,669 Small nations are not allowed to write their own history, 891 00:40:22,709 --> 00:40:24,109 and larger ones don't care as much other than to use us 892 00:40:24,109 --> 00:40:25,629 and larger ones don't care as much other than to use us 893 00:40:25,669 --> 00:40:26,509 mercilessly. 894 00:40:29,749 --> 00:40:30,109 - Croatians are fierce fighters, I'll give them that. 895 00:40:30,109 --> 00:40:33,029 - Croatians are fierce fighters, I'll give them that. 896 00:40:33,069 --> 00:40:35,789 - Because foreign have forced them to defend their homes 897 00:40:35,789 --> 00:40:36,109 for centuries. 898 00:40:36,109 --> 00:40:36,989 for centuries. 899 00:40:37,029 --> 00:40:37,909 - Foreigners. 900 00:40:38,829 --> 00:40:41,829 The Austro-Hungarian military commander, Ban Jellacic 901 00:40:42,909 --> 00:40:44,749 he wasn't a foreigner, he was Croat. 902 00:40:44,789 --> 00:40:46,429 - Who was used by Ferdinand a hundred years ago 903 00:40:46,469 --> 00:40:48,109 to defend him from Budapest. 904 00:40:48,109 --> 00:40:48,189 to defend him from Budapest. 905 00:40:48,229 --> 00:40:50,789 And after he was done, they left him to die 906 00:40:50,829 --> 00:40:54,109 his lonely pitiful death at a residence in Zagreb, 907 00:40:54,109 --> 00:40:54,509 his lonely pitiful death at a residence in Zagreb, 908 00:40:54,549 --> 00:40:56,509 a reward for his military service. 909 00:40:56,549 --> 00:41:00,109 - Croats still insist on singing rise up Ban, 910 00:41:00,109 --> 00:41:01,189 - Croats still insist on singing rise up Ban, 911 00:41:01,229 --> 00:41:02,829 Croatia is calling you. 912 00:41:02,869 --> 00:41:04,949 - We are always looking for someone to liberate us 913 00:41:04,989 --> 00:41:06,109 from a perpetual bloodbath we find ourselves in. 914 00:41:06,109 --> 00:41:07,109 from a perpetual bloodbath we find ourselves in. 915 00:41:07,149 --> 00:41:11,829 - One mistake could be an accident, a long list of mistakes, 916 00:41:13,909 --> 00:41:15,949 at some point you have to stop blaming others 917 00:41:15,989 --> 00:41:17,349 for your misfortunes. 918 00:41:33,229 --> 00:41:34,909 Has the coffee gone missing. 919 00:41:36,189 --> 00:41:38,589 Nevermind, I'll come get it myself. 920 00:41:39,669 --> 00:41:40,389 You want some? 921 00:41:40,429 --> 00:41:41,349 - No. 922 00:41:42,429 --> 00:41:44,389 - Very well, at some point today, 923 00:41:44,429 --> 00:41:46,109 I'll get you to say yes to me. 924 00:41:56,789 --> 00:41:58,109 Wheres my coffee. 925 00:42:01,829 --> 00:42:04,869 (cricket chirping) 926 00:42:13,989 --> 00:42:17,109 (recorder whirring) 927 00:42:44,749 --> 00:42:47,389 (clock ticking) 928 00:42:59,429 --> 00:43:00,109 (somber music) 929 00:43:00,109 --> 00:43:02,109 (somber music) 930 00:45:17,789 --> 00:45:18,109 (clock ticking) 931 00:45:18,109 --> 00:45:20,389 (clock ticking) 932 00:45:56,389 --> 00:45:57,629 There, it is. 933 00:45:59,069 --> 00:46:00,109 About time. 934 00:46:08,709 --> 00:46:11,629 You can read the land of fascists, 935 00:46:11,669 --> 00:46:12,109 but they still make you get your own coffee. 936 00:46:12,109 --> 00:46:13,909 but they still make you get your own coffee. 937 00:46:13,949 --> 00:46:15,189 Some things never change. 938 00:46:24,989 --> 00:46:27,109 You were admiring them. 939 00:46:28,029 --> 00:46:29,229 - Pardon? 940 00:46:29,269 --> 00:46:30,109 - Flowers, lilies. 941 00:46:30,109 --> 00:46:31,749 - Flowers, lilies. 942 00:46:34,029 --> 00:46:34,909 - Yes. 943 00:46:36,029 --> 00:46:36,109 That scent. 944 00:46:36,109 --> 00:46:37,109 That scent. 945 00:46:39,069 --> 00:46:40,389 - It's intoxicating. 946 00:46:41,749 --> 00:46:42,109 If a woman wears a perfume with even a hint of lilies, 947 00:46:42,109 --> 00:46:44,229 If a woman wears a perfume with even a hint of lilies, 948 00:46:44,269 --> 00:46:45,949 I get weak at the knees. 949 00:46:47,509 --> 00:46:48,109 - How did you get them? 950 00:46:48,109 --> 00:46:48,829 - How did you get them? 951 00:46:50,149 --> 00:46:50,949 They're not common. 952 00:46:50,949 --> 00:46:53,029 - No, you're right, they're not. 953 00:46:53,029 --> 00:46:54,109 Every week, I get a shipment. 954 00:46:54,109 --> 00:46:55,349 Every week, I get a shipment. 955 00:46:56,109 --> 00:46:57,029 Yes, I know. 956 00:46:57,829 --> 00:47:00,109 You'll have to forgive me, the bourgeoisie had taste. 957 00:47:00,109 --> 00:47:00,829 You'll have to forgive me, the bourgeoisie had taste. 958 00:47:01,509 --> 00:47:03,949 You're in the company of a weak man. 959 00:47:03,989 --> 00:47:05,349 - Somehow I doubt that. 960 00:47:06,789 --> 00:47:08,989 - Is that a compliment you're giving me. 961 00:47:10,829 --> 00:47:12,069 - Just an observation. 962 00:47:12,869 --> 00:47:14,429 - For a moment there, I thought you and I 963 00:47:14,429 --> 00:47:16,229 had finally agreed on something. 964 00:47:17,949 --> 00:47:18,109 Together we can be stronger. 965 00:47:18,109 --> 00:47:19,549 Together we can be stronger. 966 00:47:20,269 --> 00:47:23,229 That is the purpose of Yugoslavia. 967 00:47:23,269 --> 00:47:24,109 The politics of it, foreign and domestic 968 00:47:24,109 --> 00:47:25,709 The politics of it, foreign and domestic 969 00:47:25,709 --> 00:47:27,949 will always have to come down to compromise. 970 00:47:27,989 --> 00:47:29,109 We must be aware of that. 971 00:47:29,149 --> 00:47:30,109 - The church It's not a political organization 972 00:47:30,109 --> 00:47:31,989 - The church It's not a political organization 973 00:47:32,029 --> 00:47:33,109 or a business. 974 00:47:34,269 --> 00:47:36,109 - The church owns more land across the world 975 00:47:36,109 --> 00:47:36,629 - The church owns more land across the world 976 00:47:36,669 --> 00:47:38,669 than the richest nations do. 977 00:47:39,509 --> 00:47:42,109 You may not be a political organization or a business, 978 00:47:42,109 --> 00:47:42,589 You may not be a political organization or a business, 979 00:47:42,629 --> 00:47:44,109 but you are hypocrites. 980 00:47:46,189 --> 00:47:48,109 - Where are we sitting right now? 981 00:47:48,949 --> 00:47:52,069 Is this the home that wants to belong to a Jew. 982 00:47:52,109 --> 00:47:53,909 - At one time, yes. 983 00:47:53,949 --> 00:47:54,109 - One time, 1941, 4 years ago. 984 00:47:54,109 --> 00:47:57,029 - One time, 1941, 4 years ago. 985 00:47:57,069 --> 00:47:58,269 - Yes. 986 00:47:58,309 --> 00:48:00,109 But who took the homes from the Jews? 987 00:48:00,109 --> 00:48:00,749 But who took the homes from the Jews? 988 00:48:01,509 --> 00:48:02,829 The system, your people support. 989 00:48:02,869 --> 00:48:05,709 - Yes, but then those same homes are taken by your peop. 990 00:48:05,749 --> 00:48:06,109 You could have given them back. 991 00:48:06,109 --> 00:48:06,869 You could have given them back. 992 00:48:06,909 --> 00:48:09,029 - It will be discussed at some point. 993 00:48:09,709 --> 00:48:12,109 - The Ustase took this house from a Jew, 994 00:48:12,109 --> 00:48:12,149 - The Ustase took this house from a Jew, 995 00:48:12,189 --> 00:48:13,589 the communist took it from the Ustase, 996 00:48:13,629 --> 00:48:16,109 yet no one is willing to fix the wrongs done by the system 997 00:48:16,149 --> 00:48:17,629 they just overthrew. 998 00:48:17,669 --> 00:48:18,109 A wrong done by one does not justify the wrong done by 999 00:48:18,109 --> 00:48:20,109 A wrong done by one does not justify the wrong done by 1000 00:48:20,149 --> 00:48:21,469 whomever comes next. 1001 00:48:21,469 --> 00:48:23,189 - You know that the only reason people that you 1002 00:48:23,229 --> 00:48:24,109 can't marry or have children is so that the 1003 00:48:24,109 --> 00:48:25,349 can't marry or have children is so that the 1004 00:48:25,389 --> 00:48:28,029 church's property can never come into question. 1005 00:48:28,789 --> 00:48:30,109 It's not because your servitude to God would suffer, no. 1006 00:48:30,109 --> 00:48:32,109 It's not because your servitude to God would suffer, no. 1007 00:48:33,269 --> 00:48:35,109 It's only because the church might lose 1008 00:48:35,149 --> 00:48:36,109 its precious valuables. 1009 00:48:36,109 --> 00:48:36,989 its precious valuables. 1010 00:48:38,029 --> 00:48:40,829 If the people in the Vatican chose not to care so much 1011 00:48:40,869 --> 00:48:42,109 for material things, you might not have been faced 1012 00:48:42,109 --> 00:48:43,029 for material things, you might not have been faced 1013 00:48:43,069 --> 00:48:44,509 with that fatal choice. 1014 00:48:45,789 --> 00:48:48,109 To either enter priesthood or Mary Marija and have a family, 1015 00:48:48,109 --> 00:48:51,069 To either enter priesthood or Mary Marija and have a family, 1016 00:48:52,949 --> 00:48:54,109 perhaps she'd be alive and well. 1017 00:48:54,109 --> 00:48:54,989 perhaps she'd be alive and well. 1018 00:48:54,989 --> 00:48:57,109 And you wouldn't be tormented by the thoughts 1019 00:48:57,149 --> 00:48:58,509 of what might have been. 1020 00:48:59,389 --> 00:49:00,109 You wouldn't have the need to visit her every Friday 1021 00:49:00,109 --> 00:49:02,669 You wouldn't have the need to visit her every Friday 1022 00:49:04,789 --> 00:49:06,109 when no one's looking. 1023 00:49:06,109 --> 00:49:06,669 when no one's looking. 1024 00:49:08,029 --> 00:49:10,629 (soft music) 1025 00:50:15,949 --> 00:50:17,629 I can give you peace of mind. 1026 00:50:18,909 --> 00:50:21,189 We're building a new way of life. 1027 00:50:21,229 --> 00:50:23,629 You and I, we can co-exist you don't need the chain, 1028 00:50:23,669 --> 00:50:24,109 that is the Vatican to drag you down. 1029 00:50:24,109 --> 00:50:25,949 that is the Vatican to drag you down. 1030 00:50:25,989 --> 00:50:27,229 - Now, stop. 1031 00:50:27,269 --> 00:50:29,869 - That is the reality whether you care to admit it or not. 1032 00:50:29,909 --> 00:50:30,109 - A child can never divorce his parents. 1033 00:50:30,109 --> 00:50:32,109 - A child can never divorce his parents. 1034 00:50:32,149 --> 00:50:34,909 - Not unless the parents neglect the child, 1035 00:50:34,949 --> 00:50:36,109 time and time again. 1036 00:50:36,109 --> 00:50:36,229 time and time again. 1037 00:50:37,389 --> 00:50:40,669 Equality for all nations and nationalities, 1038 00:50:40,669 --> 00:50:42,109 mistakes made by the kingdom won't be repeated. 1039 00:50:42,109 --> 00:50:43,389 mistakes made by the kingdom won't be repeated. 1040 00:50:44,109 --> 00:50:46,389 Yugoslavia will be a republic, 1041 00:50:46,429 --> 00:50:48,109 one that's federal socialist, democratic, 1042 00:50:48,109 --> 00:50:48,909 one that's federal socialist, democratic, 1043 00:50:48,949 --> 00:50:50,789 and just for all equally. 1044 00:50:50,829 --> 00:50:52,669 - Declaring is one thing. 1045 00:50:52,669 --> 00:50:53,949 Reality is another. 1046 00:50:53,989 --> 00:50:54,109 - What do you mean by that? 1047 00:50:54,109 --> 00:50:55,789 - What do you mean by that? 1048 00:50:55,789 --> 00:50:58,829 The capitol you've chosen, Belgrade, 1049 00:50:58,869 --> 00:51:00,109 all the decisions for once it can be centered there. 1050 00:51:00,109 --> 00:51:01,909 all the decisions for once it can be centered there. 1051 00:51:01,949 --> 00:51:03,949 We won't have much to say because we won't be asked 1052 00:51:03,989 --> 00:51:05,789 what our opinion even is. 1053 00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:06,109 And our faith will be subordinated as it was before. 1054 00:51:06,109 --> 00:51:08,589 And our faith will be subordinated as it was before. 1055 00:51:10,029 --> 00:51:12,109 - After all that's happened, 1056 00:51:12,109 --> 00:51:12,269 - After all that's happened, 1057 00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:15,789 I should've picked Ustase Zagreb as the Capitol. 1058 00:51:17,389 --> 00:51:18,109 Brotherhood and unity. 1059 00:51:18,109 --> 00:51:19,109 Brotherhood and unity. 1060 00:51:19,989 --> 00:51:22,109 Zagreb was not an example of that. 1061 00:51:23,069 --> 00:51:24,109 We will not tolerate nationalism as it was practicd 1062 00:51:24,109 --> 00:51:26,269 We will not tolerate nationalism as it was practicd 1063 00:51:26,309 --> 00:51:29,389 in the so-called independent state of Croatia 1064 00:51:29,429 --> 00:51:30,109 for four years. 1065 00:51:30,109 --> 00:51:30,509 for four years. 1066 00:51:30,549 --> 00:51:32,709 Belgrade is the only logical choice. 1067 00:51:32,749 --> 00:51:34,709 - Not a thing in life or nature occurs 1068 00:51:34,749 --> 00:51:36,109 without a cause and effect. 1069 00:51:36,109 --> 00:51:36,749 without a cause and effect. 1070 00:51:36,789 --> 00:51:39,069 You hit a dog, he will react. 1071 00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:41,429 Serbs impose their wilderness throughout the 20 years 1072 00:51:41,429 --> 00:51:42,109 we spent with him in a first marriage called Yugoslavia. 1073 00:51:42,109 --> 00:51:43,829 we spent with him in a first marriage called Yugoslavia. 1074 00:51:43,869 --> 00:51:45,589 So how do you expect it to be different? 1075 00:51:45,629 --> 00:51:46,869 - That's extraordinary. 1076 00:51:46,909 --> 00:51:48,109 I have this same conversation in Belgrade 1077 00:51:48,109 --> 00:51:49,989 I have this same conversation in Belgrade 1078 00:51:50,029 --> 00:51:51,869 and the story is reversed. 1079 00:51:51,909 --> 00:51:54,109 They are the ones who were imposed against, killed 1080 00:51:54,109 --> 00:51:54,869 They are the ones who were imposed against, killed 1081 00:51:54,909 --> 00:51:56,229 tortured by Croats. 1082 00:51:56,269 --> 00:51:58,109 They have proof so on and so forth. 1083 00:51:58,149 --> 00:52:00,109 It never ends, we must end it. 1084 00:52:00,109 --> 00:52:00,709 It never ends, we must end it. 1085 00:52:00,749 --> 00:52:03,709 Serbs are just as obsessed with ufology and past. 1086 00:52:03,749 --> 00:52:06,109 - Croatia and Serbs are two opposing worlds, 1087 00:52:06,109 --> 00:52:06,389 - Croatia and Serbs are two opposing worlds, 1088 00:52:06,429 --> 00:52:08,269 separated by an oceans of differences. 1089 00:52:08,309 --> 00:52:11,549 - Yet we have to find a way of coexisting. 1090 00:52:12,429 --> 00:52:13,829 For the first time in history, 1091 00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:17,829 we have the opportunity to eliminate these differences. 1092 00:52:17,869 --> 00:52:18,109 - I don't know who you're referring to under we, 1093 00:52:18,109 --> 00:52:20,109 - I don't know who you're referring to under we, 1094 00:52:20,149 --> 00:52:23,349 but it's clear your revolution is introducing foreign ideas 1095 00:52:23,389 --> 00:52:24,109 and the interest of the more powerful 1096 00:52:24,109 --> 00:52:24,749 and the interest of the more powerful 1097 00:52:24,789 --> 00:52:26,789 into the mess that is the Balkans. 1098 00:52:26,789 --> 00:52:28,949 Everybody forgets the true purpose of small nations 1099 00:52:28,989 --> 00:52:30,109 in this European shooting gallery. 1100 00:52:30,109 --> 00:52:30,949 in this European shooting gallery. 1101 00:52:30,989 --> 00:52:32,229 - The purpose being? 1102 00:52:32,229 --> 00:52:34,109 - That they had designated by God and fate 1103 00:52:34,149 --> 00:52:36,109 to connect people, permanent bridges of sort 1104 00:52:36,109 --> 00:52:37,669 to connect people, permanent bridges of sort 1105 00:52:37,709 --> 00:52:39,029 between opposing worlds. 1106 00:52:39,829 --> 00:52:42,109 Like bridges are also the site of the fiercest battles 1107 00:52:42,109 --> 00:52:42,229 Like bridges are also the site of the fiercest battles 1108 00:52:42,269 --> 00:52:43,949 intend to be destroyed. 1109 00:52:43,989 --> 00:52:46,589 The Croatian bridge defended European Christianit. 1110 00:52:46,589 --> 00:52:48,109 - You can't say that Pavelic, 1111 00:52:48,109 --> 00:52:49,749 - You can't say that Pavelic, 1112 00:52:49,789 --> 00:52:51,909 and his regime served as a bridge. 1113 00:52:51,949 --> 00:52:53,509 - I'm not talking about him now as a priest, 1114 00:52:53,509 --> 00:52:54,109 but as a witness, a witness Pavelic wasn't fond of. 1115 00:52:54,109 --> 00:52:57,669 but as a witness, a witness Pavelic wasn't fond of. 1116 00:52:57,709 --> 00:52:58,949 I did not like him, and he did not like me. 1117 00:52:58,989 --> 00:53:00,109 - Yes, but Archbishop, 1118 00:53:00,109 --> 00:53:00,229 - Yes, but Archbishop, 1119 00:53:00,269 --> 00:53:03,789 the art of life is choosing the right side. 1120 00:53:03,829 --> 00:53:05,989 - And what his history right side? 1121 00:53:06,029 --> 00:53:06,109 Phoenicians? 1122 00:53:06,109 --> 00:53:07,109 Phoenicians? 1123 00:53:07,109 --> 00:53:07,869 Tatas? 1124 00:53:07,909 --> 00:53:09,029 Francs? 1125 00:53:09,069 --> 00:53:11,829 Bisson deans, Hungarians, Turks, Habsburgs, Germans, 1126 00:53:11,829 --> 00:53:12,109 and following world war one Serbs? 1127 00:53:12,109 --> 00:53:13,469 and following world war one Serbs? 1128 00:53:13,509 --> 00:53:15,149 Creations has survived and was saved only through God 1129 00:53:15,189 --> 00:53:17,949 and the faith in him, not politics. 1130 00:53:17,989 --> 00:53:18,109 - Yes, but the revolution must go on. 1131 00:53:18,109 --> 00:53:20,229 - Yes, but the revolution must go on. 1132 00:53:21,749 --> 00:53:23,469 New times are coming. 1133 00:53:23,509 --> 00:53:24,109 The church is being separated from the state of the west 1134 00:53:24,109 --> 00:53:25,349 The church is being separated from the state of the west 1135 00:53:25,389 --> 00:53:26,749 as well. 1136 00:53:26,789 --> 00:53:28,909 - Neither Yugoslavia, all the independent state of Croatia 1137 00:53:28,949 --> 00:53:30,029 were inclined towards the church 1138 00:53:30,029 --> 00:53:30,109 because we publicly condemned every instance 1139 00:53:30,109 --> 00:53:32,309 because we publicly condemned every instance 1140 00:53:32,349 --> 00:53:33,669 of unjust persecution. 1141 00:53:33,709 --> 00:53:35,909 - You will have to firmly distance yourself 1142 00:53:35,949 --> 00:53:36,109 from nationalism now. 1143 00:53:36,109 --> 00:53:37,229 from nationalism now. 1144 00:53:37,269 --> 00:53:39,669 - I can only repeat what I said during my sermon in Zagreb 1145 00:53:39,709 --> 00:53:40,869 two years ago. 1146 00:53:40,909 --> 00:53:42,109 We do not support nationalism because Catholicm 1147 00:53:42,109 --> 00:53:44,229 We do not support nationalism because Catholicm 1148 00:53:44,269 --> 00:53:45,429 is universal. 1149 00:53:45,469 --> 00:53:47,909 It was God's greatness, that created many nations, 1150 00:53:47,949 --> 00:53:48,109 different traditions, languages, cultures. 1151 00:53:48,109 --> 00:53:50,189 different traditions, languages, cultures. 1152 00:53:50,229 --> 00:53:52,309 Every race, every religion, every nation 1153 00:53:52,349 --> 00:53:54,109 has the right of life worthy of man. 1154 00:53:54,109 --> 00:53:54,669 has the right of life worthy of man. 1155 00:53:54,669 --> 00:53:57,509 - I'm authorized to tell you that Belgrade 1156 00:53:57,549 --> 00:53:59,549 would welcome an agreement with you. 1157 00:53:59,589 --> 00:54:00,109 I personally wish for this to happen. 1158 00:54:00,109 --> 00:54:01,989 I personally wish for this to happen. 1159 00:54:02,029 --> 00:54:03,229 - So do we. 1160 00:54:03,269 --> 00:54:05,629 But not an agreement where we agree to destroy ourselves. 1161 00:54:05,669 --> 00:54:06,109 - If you refuse, you will have to accept 1162 00:54:06,109 --> 00:54:08,149 - If you refuse, you will have to accept 1163 00:54:08,149 --> 00:54:09,509 full responsibility. 1164 00:54:09,549 --> 00:54:10,989 - For what? 1165 00:54:11,029 --> 00:54:12,109 - Consequences. 1166 00:54:12,109 --> 00:54:12,189 - Consequences. 1167 00:54:13,269 --> 00:54:15,749 We're not interested in dealing with the Vatican, 1168 00:54:15,789 --> 00:54:17,509 we specifically want an agreement 1169 00:54:17,549 --> 00:54:18,109 with the Catholic church of Croatia. 1170 00:54:18,109 --> 00:54:19,589 with the Catholic church of Croatia. 1171 00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:21,589 One that you could personally administer. 1172 00:54:21,629 --> 00:54:24,109 And as I said, I can guarantee your safety. 1173 00:54:24,109 --> 00:54:24,469 And as I said, I can guarantee your safety. 1174 00:54:24,509 --> 00:54:26,869 - We cannot agree to have a national Catholic church. 1175 00:54:26,909 --> 00:54:28,709 It does not exist, all roads- 1176 00:54:28,749 --> 00:54:30,109 - Lead to Rome. 1177 00:54:30,109 --> 00:54:31,109 - Lead to Rome. 1178 00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:35,029 But why? 1179 00:54:37,789 --> 00:54:41,669 You have a chance, the power to change that. 1180 00:54:42,829 --> 00:54:45,829 And you start a new world. 1181 00:54:46,829 --> 00:54:48,109 I've already begun the change and you can start one as well. 1182 00:54:48,109 --> 00:54:49,189 I've already begun the change and you can start one as well. 1183 00:54:49,229 --> 00:54:51,949 Can't you see what we're doing? 1184 00:54:52,669 --> 00:54:53,909 Yes. 1185 00:54:53,949 --> 00:54:54,109 The veil that is communism may not be very appetizing 1186 00:54:54,109 --> 00:54:56,629 The veil that is communism may not be very appetizing 1187 00:54:56,669 --> 00:54:57,869 to someone such as yourself, 1188 00:54:57,909 --> 00:54:59,709 but you must agree with the basic fact 1189 00:54:59,749 --> 00:55:00,109 that some form of social equality, safety is necessary. 1190 00:55:00,109 --> 00:55:04,989 that some form of social equality, safety is necessary. 1191 00:55:05,869 --> 00:55:06,109 Haven't our people suffered enough. 1192 00:55:06,109 --> 00:55:06,909 Haven't our people suffered enough. 1193 00:55:06,949 --> 00:55:10,669 Don't we owed them some sense of security. 1194 00:55:12,829 --> 00:55:15,269 - The politicians in Belgrade and the Orthodox church, 1195 00:55:15,309 --> 00:55:17,869 have always gone hand in hand, even publicly. 1196 00:55:17,909 --> 00:55:18,109 The Serbian Orthodox church is more political 1197 00:55:18,109 --> 00:55:19,749 The Serbian Orthodox church is more political 1198 00:55:19,789 --> 00:55:20,869 than every religious organization. 1199 00:55:20,909 --> 00:55:23,309 That is why the agreement was annulled. 1200 00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:24,109 I do not want to competition between Zagreb and Belgrade, 1201 00:55:24,109 --> 00:55:25,829 I do not want to competition between Zagreb and Belgrade, 1202 00:55:25,869 --> 00:55:27,309 all acts of vengeance. 1203 00:55:27,349 --> 00:55:29,109 I insisted the misunderstandings end 1204 00:55:29,149 --> 00:55:30,109 when the agreement was annulled. 1205 00:55:30,109 --> 00:55:30,349 when the agreement was annulled. 1206 00:55:30,389 --> 00:55:34,109 - We won't give precedence in the new Yugoslavia, 1207 00:55:34,109 --> 00:55:35,269 to anyone religion. 1208 00:55:35,309 --> 00:55:36,109 - Actions are important not words. 1209 00:55:36,109 --> 00:55:37,589 - Actions are important not words. 1210 00:55:37,629 --> 00:55:39,749 With your methods, you get the opposite effect. 1211 00:55:39,789 --> 00:55:40,789 - What methods? 1212 00:55:42,309 --> 00:55:43,189 - Locking me up. 1213 00:55:43,909 --> 00:55:45,909 The highest Catholic servant in the land. 1214 00:55:45,909 --> 00:55:48,109 - We were forced to put you in detention. 1215 00:55:48,109 --> 00:55:48,949 - We were forced to put you in detention. 1216 00:55:48,989 --> 00:55:50,109 We wanted to negotiate. 1217 00:55:50,149 --> 00:55:52,029 We sent people to you, you turned them down 1218 00:55:52,029 --> 00:55:52,949 time and time again. 1219 00:55:52,949 --> 00:55:54,109 What options did you give us? 1220 00:55:54,109 --> 00:55:54,469 What options did you give us? 1221 00:55:54,509 --> 00:55:56,829 - Yes, you are correct, people were sent. 1222 00:55:56,869 --> 00:55:59,669 They offered me cigarettes like you do when I came here, 1223 00:55:59,709 --> 00:56:00,109 probably thinking that if I smoked home with them, 1224 00:56:00,109 --> 00:56:01,309 probably thinking that if I smoked home with them, 1225 00:56:01,349 --> 00:56:04,029 it gets something for me that I confined them. 1226 00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:05,909 You must've sent about four different men, 1227 00:56:05,949 --> 00:56:06,109 all with the same approach. 1228 00:56:06,109 --> 00:56:07,909 all with the same approach. 1229 00:56:07,949 --> 00:56:10,029 By the third I flat out refused. 1230 00:56:10,749 --> 00:56:12,109 Then the threats came. 1231 00:56:12,109 --> 00:56:12,269 Then the threats came. 1232 00:56:12,269 --> 00:56:14,709 - Our official representative for religious issues 1233 00:56:14,749 --> 00:56:15,909 were sent to you. 1234 00:56:15,909 --> 00:56:18,109 He was once your associate, you turned him down. 1235 00:56:18,109 --> 00:56:18,389 He was once your associate, you turned him down. 1236 00:56:18,429 --> 00:56:21,069 - Yes, he was once before he joined your movement 1237 00:56:21,109 --> 00:56:23,149 and went over to the Partisans. 1238 00:56:23,149 --> 00:56:24,109 I told him I would always receive him at my residence, 1239 00:56:24,109 --> 00:56:26,029 I told him I would always receive him at my residence, 1240 00:56:26,069 --> 00:56:28,989 but me not as a prisoner and him not as a politician, 1241 00:56:29,029 --> 00:56:29,949 but as a priest. 1242 00:56:29,949 --> 00:56:30,109 - And we even sent Olga to you. 1243 00:56:30,109 --> 00:56:32,389 - And we even sent Olga to you. 1244 00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:36,109 The niece of the leader of the Croatian Peasant party, 1245 00:56:36,109 --> 00:56:37,149 The niece of the leader of the Croatian Peasant party, 1246 00:56:37,149 --> 00:56:38,109 Dr. Macek. 1247 00:56:38,909 --> 00:56:40,989 - She was a devout Catholic in her youth, 1248 00:56:41,029 --> 00:56:42,109 as well as her uncle. 1249 00:56:42,109 --> 00:56:42,189 as well as her uncle. 1250 00:56:42,189 --> 00:56:44,949 I respected and helped both of them when necessary. 1251 00:56:44,989 --> 00:56:46,189 But during his student days, 1252 00:56:46,189 --> 00:56:48,109 Olga fell under the influence of your ideology 1253 00:56:48,109 --> 00:56:48,509 Olga fell under the influence of your ideology 1254 00:56:48,509 --> 00:56:49,629 and defected to you. 1255 00:56:49,629 --> 00:56:50,389 She told me herself. 1256 00:56:50,429 --> 00:56:51,869 - And what did she say? 1257 00:56:51,869 --> 00:56:54,109 - That she believed in you and that your party 1258 00:56:54,109 --> 00:56:54,189 - That she believed in you and that your party 1259 00:56:54,229 --> 00:56:55,429 was sacred to her. 1260 00:56:55,469 --> 00:56:56,869 - Didn't that make an impression? 1261 00:56:56,869 --> 00:56:58,949 - People like her don't come to negotiate. 1262 00:56:58,989 --> 00:57:00,109 They come to persuade. 1263 00:57:00,109 --> 00:57:00,549 They come to persuade. 1264 00:57:00,589 --> 00:57:04,109 I told Olga to go and talk politics with her uncle. 1265 00:57:04,109 --> 00:57:06,109 as a tremendous difference between negotiation 1266 00:57:06,109 --> 00:57:06,149 as a tremendous difference between negotiation 1267 00:57:06,149 --> 00:57:08,269 and a persistent attempt to persuasion. 1268 00:57:09,469 --> 00:57:12,109 - It's not very easy talking to you and Mr. Archbishop. 1269 00:57:12,109 --> 00:57:12,389 - It's not very easy talking to you and Mr. Archbishop. 1270 00:57:16,029 --> 00:57:16,949 Here, the logs. 1271 00:57:19,989 --> 00:57:23,069 Proof that you behaved in an uncooperative manner 1272 00:57:23,109 --> 00:57:24,109 even before the Partisans marched into Zagreb. 1273 00:57:24,109 --> 00:57:25,789 even before the Partisans marched into Zagreb. 1274 00:57:28,429 --> 00:57:30,109 We sent a delegate to you, this year before Easter 1275 00:57:30,109 --> 00:57:33,429 We sent a delegate to you, this year before Easter 1276 00:57:33,469 --> 00:57:36,109 as you were preparing to give a lecture to students 1277 00:57:36,109 --> 00:57:36,189 as you were preparing to give a lecture to students 1278 00:57:36,189 --> 00:57:37,149 at the university. 1279 00:57:37,149 --> 00:57:39,189 That was a clear attempt to frighten me. 1280 00:57:39,229 --> 00:57:40,829 - It is crucial that we know what the young people 1281 00:57:40,869 --> 00:57:42,109 are going to hear. 1282 00:57:42,109 --> 00:57:42,189 are going to hear. 1283 00:57:42,229 --> 00:57:44,429 Yes, he was sent intentionally with our instruction. 1284 00:57:44,429 --> 00:57:45,869 - Instructions to silence me. 1285 00:57:45,909 --> 00:57:47,829 You must understand the position we're in. 1286 00:57:47,869 --> 00:57:48,109 - You're fooling yourself into thinking 1287 00:57:48,109 --> 00:57:49,269 - You're fooling yourself into thinking 1288 00:57:49,269 --> 00:57:51,789 I would take instructions from communists about what I say, 1289 00:57:51,789 --> 00:57:53,789 especially to the young people. 1290 00:57:53,829 --> 00:57:54,109 - You criticized the great powers in your lecture. 1291 00:57:54,109 --> 00:57:56,429 - You criticized the great powers in your lecture. 1292 00:57:57,469 --> 00:57:58,509 I have it all here. 1293 00:58:01,949 --> 00:58:04,509 (gentle music) 1294 00:58:33,909 --> 00:58:36,109 You mentioned the evil Stalin is doing, 1295 00:58:36,109 --> 00:58:37,109 You mentioned the evil Stalin is doing, 1296 00:58:37,149 --> 00:58:38,789 the Yalta agreement. 1297 00:58:38,789 --> 00:58:39,829 I could go on. 1298 00:58:40,869 --> 00:58:42,109 Isn't that getting involved in politics? 1299 00:58:42,109 --> 00:58:42,429 Isn't that getting involved in politics? 1300 00:58:42,469 --> 00:58:44,229 - The church is not permitted to be timid 1301 00:58:44,269 --> 00:58:46,789 or indifferent about anything in this environment. 1302 00:58:46,829 --> 00:58:48,109 - But you insist that the powers that be have no right 1303 00:58:48,109 --> 00:58:49,189 - But you insist that the powers that be have no right 1304 00:58:49,229 --> 00:58:50,349 to interfere with you? 1305 00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:53,549 That's a one-sided affair as logic would see it. 1306 00:58:53,549 --> 00:58:54,109 - I simply emphasize in my talk, 1307 00:58:54,109 --> 00:58:55,429 - I simply emphasize in my talk, 1308 00:58:55,469 --> 00:58:58,109 the principle of peace St Augustine came up with- 1309 00:58:58,149 --> 00:59:00,109 - By criticizing the great powers. 1310 00:59:00,109 --> 00:59:00,309 - By criticizing the great powers. 1311 00:59:01,909 --> 00:59:05,909 Your attempt to discreet diplomacy isn't very discreet. 1312 00:59:05,909 --> 00:59:06,109 - Who said I was trying to be discreet? 1313 00:59:06,109 --> 00:59:07,389 - Who said I was trying to be discreet? 1314 00:59:07,429 --> 00:59:08,429 - That you aren't. 1315 00:59:09,749 --> 00:59:11,829 But Archbishop, we must pick our battles. 1316 00:59:11,869 --> 00:59:12,109 - St Augustine said, (speaks foreign language) 1317 00:59:12,109 --> 00:59:16,789 - St Augustine said, (speaks foreign language) 1318 00:59:16,829 --> 00:59:18,109 which means the piece of all things. 1319 00:59:18,109 --> 00:59:18,949 which means the piece of all things. 1320 00:59:19,869 --> 00:59:23,269 - So why hasn't St. Augustine's ideas been realized? 1321 00:59:24,229 --> 00:59:27,629 It is theory Archbishop, just theory. 1322 00:59:27,669 --> 00:59:28,869 - However you wish to look at it, 1323 00:59:28,869 --> 00:59:30,109 I find certain comfort in those who promote peace, 1324 00:59:30,109 --> 00:59:31,749 I find certain comfort in those who promote peace, 1325 00:59:31,749 --> 00:59:33,269 rather than the idea of peace 1326 00:59:33,309 --> 00:59:35,309 gained through the means of a bloody dictatorship. 1327 00:59:35,309 --> 00:59:36,109 - You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. 1328 00:59:36,109 --> 00:59:37,869 - You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. 1329 00:59:37,869 --> 00:59:41,229 I too would like absolute peace to be reached. 1330 00:59:41,229 --> 00:59:42,109 Of course, the question remains how. 1331 00:59:42,109 --> 00:59:44,949 Of course, the question remains how. 1332 00:59:44,949 --> 00:59:47,109 - Peace comes from knowing oneself, 1333 00:59:47,149 --> 00:59:48,109 respecting thy neighbor and that belief in God. 1334 00:59:48,109 --> 00:59:49,509 respecting thy neighbor and that belief in God. 1335 00:59:49,549 --> 00:59:52,349 - And I just saw a pig take flight. 1336 00:59:53,789 --> 00:59:54,109 Let's be real for once. 1337 00:59:54,109 --> 00:59:55,629 Let's be real for once. 1338 00:59:56,309 --> 00:59:59,269 Seven days after your lecture when we were practically 1339 00:59:59,309 --> 01:00:00,109 at the gates of Zagreb, 1340 01:00:00,109 --> 01:00:00,789 at the gates of Zagreb, 1341 01:00:00,829 --> 01:00:03,509 not only did you describe communism as a looming danger, 1342 01:00:03,549 --> 01:00:06,109 but you publicly accused us of destroying churches 1343 01:00:06,109 --> 01:00:06,589 but you publicly accused us of destroying churches 1344 01:00:06,629 --> 01:00:07,789 and killing priests. 1345 01:00:07,829 --> 01:00:09,549 You didn't think we'd get into the city, did you? 1346 01:00:09,589 --> 01:00:10,869 - The bishops, and I simply spoke the truth, 1347 01:00:10,909 --> 01:00:12,109 and I can repeat it now, anytime, if you'd like. 1348 01:00:12,109 --> 01:00:12,789 and I can repeat it now, anytime, if you'd like. 1349 01:00:12,829 --> 01:00:16,149 - You are programmed to have a response to everything I sa. 1350 01:00:16,189 --> 01:00:17,669 - Because I have nothing to hide. 1351 01:00:17,709 --> 01:00:18,109 My soul is pure. 1352 01:00:18,109 --> 01:00:19,389 My soul is pure. 1353 01:00:19,429 --> 01:00:20,309 Is yours? 1354 01:00:22,269 --> 01:00:24,109 243 priests and fathers were killed by the Partisans. 1355 01:00:24,109 --> 01:00:25,069 243 priests and fathers were killed by the Partisans. 1356 01:00:25,109 --> 01:00:28,949 169 in prison, 89 disappeared along with 119 theologians, 1357 01:00:28,989 --> 01:00:29,869 the numbers keep rising. 1358 01:00:29,909 --> 01:00:30,109 - We can't talk like this. 1359 01:00:30,109 --> 01:00:30,949 - We can't talk like this. 1360 01:00:30,989 --> 01:00:31,949 - These numbers cannot be- 1361 01:00:31,989 --> 01:00:32,869 - Enough! 1362 01:00:35,389 --> 01:00:36,109 - If any of what you say is true, 1363 01:00:36,109 --> 01:00:36,869 - If any of what you say is true, 1364 01:00:36,909 --> 01:00:39,989 then your people didn't die innocent men. 1365 01:00:40,029 --> 01:00:42,109 And as you said, everything in life has a cause and effec. 1366 01:00:42,109 --> 01:00:42,549 And as you said, everything in life has a cause and effec. 1367 01:00:42,589 --> 01:00:44,069 - These were men of God got and honor- 1368 01:00:44,069 --> 01:00:47,109 - Spare me the sympathy Catholic, they were collaborators. 1369 01:00:48,109 --> 01:00:51,189 - In February, the 7th 29 priests were killed 1370 01:00:51,229 --> 01:00:53,949 inside a monastery in Siroki Brijeg at Herzegovina. 1371 01:00:53,949 --> 01:00:54,109 - The information I was given was that Siroki Brijeg 1372 01:00:54,109 --> 01:00:56,429 - The information I was given was that Siroki Brijeg 1373 01:00:56,469 --> 01:00:58,669 was a stronghold of the enemy, as simple as that. 1374 01:00:58,709 --> 01:00:59,629 - So you knew about this? 1375 01:00:59,669 --> 01:01:00,109 - Of course I did. 1376 01:01:00,109 --> 01:01:00,749 - Of course I did. 1377 01:01:00,789 --> 01:01:02,029 The problem was dealt with. 1378 01:01:02,069 --> 01:01:04,749 - These men possessed nothing but a kitchen knives. 1379 01:01:05,629 --> 01:01:06,109 - You were there? 1380 01:01:06,109 --> 01:01:07,029 - You were there? 1381 01:01:07,029 --> 01:01:08,909 You know this to be true what you just said. 1382 01:01:08,909 --> 01:01:10,829 - I know enough that guns are never part of the clergy. 1383 01:01:10,869 --> 01:01:12,109 - So quickly are to defend based on old assumptions. 1384 01:01:12,109 --> 01:01:13,989 - So quickly are to defend based on old assumptions. 1385 01:01:14,029 --> 01:01:15,749 - As quick as you to assume otherwise. 1386 01:01:15,749 --> 01:01:17,869 - You should know better Archbishop 1387 01:01:17,909 --> 01:01:18,109 than to stick your neck out to save someone 1388 01:01:18,109 --> 01:01:19,949 than to stick your neck out to save someone 1389 01:01:19,989 --> 01:01:21,589 from Herzegovina. 1390 01:01:21,589 --> 01:01:23,589 The only thing they enjoy more than money 1391 01:01:23,629 --> 01:01:24,109 is distorting the truth. 1392 01:01:24,109 --> 01:01:24,869 is distorting the truth. 1393 01:01:24,909 --> 01:01:26,349 There was credible proof to have them- 1394 01:01:26,389 --> 01:01:27,469 - Killed? - ...dealt with. 1395 01:01:27,509 --> 01:01:29,109 And I was the one who gave the older. 1396 01:01:31,949 --> 01:01:35,909 People die in war Archbishop. 1397 01:01:35,949 --> 01:01:36,109 A message needed to be sent. 1398 01:01:36,109 --> 01:01:37,429 A message needed to be sent. 1399 01:01:38,869 --> 01:01:42,109 - No trial, just an assumption and immediate verdict. 1400 01:01:42,109 --> 01:01:42,989 - No trial, just an assumption and immediate verdict. 1401 01:01:43,029 --> 01:01:44,469 We are turning to both our times. 1402 01:01:44,509 --> 01:01:47,429 - In France, just this last year during the liberation 1403 01:01:47,469 --> 01:01:48,109 from the Germans, thousands of suspects have died 1404 01:01:48,109 --> 01:01:50,269 from the Germans, thousands of suspects have died 1405 01:01:50,309 --> 01:01:52,189 without legal process, why? 1406 01:01:52,229 --> 01:01:54,109 Because they collaborated with the enemy. 1407 01:01:54,109 --> 01:01:54,909 Because they collaborated with the enemy. 1408 01:01:54,909 --> 01:01:57,349 - France is not like the Balkans. 1409 01:01:57,389 --> 01:01:59,389 He, it is enough just to label someone a fascist 1410 01:01:59,429 --> 01:02:00,109 and that's it. 1411 01:02:00,109 --> 01:02:00,469 and that's it. 1412 01:02:00,509 --> 01:02:01,869 And the tiny nation being persecuted. 1413 01:02:01,909 --> 01:02:03,949 - It's the hand of our peoples revenge. 1414 01:02:03,989 --> 01:02:05,989 - The power is now in the hands of your commanders 1415 01:02:06,029 --> 01:02:06,109 and commissaries, most of whom were Serbs. 1416 01:02:06,109 --> 01:02:08,509 and commissaries, most of whom were Serbs. 1417 01:02:08,509 --> 01:02:10,069 They too collaborated with the Germans, 1418 01:02:10,069 --> 01:02:12,069 but this gets conveniently forgotten. 1419 01:02:12,869 --> 01:02:15,589 The chief commander Jelic, he bragged the Soviet 1420 01:02:15,629 --> 01:02:16,429 was the first country in Europe, 1421 01:02:16,469 --> 01:02:17,709 to rid itself of the Jews. 1422 01:02:17,749 --> 01:02:18,109 And you think that you Yugoslavia can suddenly become 1423 01:02:18,109 --> 01:02:20,349 And you think that you Yugoslavia can suddenly become 1424 01:02:20,389 --> 01:02:21,949 a community of equal nations? 1425 01:02:21,989 --> 01:02:24,109 - That is the vision, and that is how it will be. 1426 01:02:24,109 --> 01:02:24,349 - That is the vision, and that is how it will be. 1427 01:02:24,389 --> 01:02:28,429 - You too are a Croat, and this is after all your count. 1428 01:02:28,429 --> 01:02:29,989 I hope a part of you remembers that. 1429 01:02:30,029 --> 01:02:30,109 - I am a Croat. 1430 01:02:30,109 --> 01:02:31,109 - I am a Croat. 1431 01:02:32,269 --> 01:02:35,069 And I'm the general secretary of Yugoslavia. 1432 01:02:35,909 --> 01:02:36,109 What I am and where I'm from is what gave us our divisions. 1433 01:02:36,109 --> 01:02:39,789 What I am and where I'm from is what gave us our divisions. 1434 01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:41,829 We need to set it aside. 1435 01:02:41,869 --> 01:02:42,109 We are all Yugoslavs. 1436 01:02:42,109 --> 01:02:44,749 We are all Yugoslavs. 1437 01:02:45,869 --> 01:02:47,949 - Many of the soldiers that fought in your army 1438 01:02:47,949 --> 01:02:48,109 fought alongside the Chetniks. 1439 01:02:48,109 --> 01:02:49,469 fought alongside the Chetniks. 1440 01:02:49,509 --> 01:02:51,869 Aside the constant the sight of anyone who is Croatian, 1441 01:02:51,909 --> 01:02:54,109 and you expect them to suddenly change. 1442 01:02:54,109 --> 01:02:54,149 and you expect them to suddenly change. 1443 01:02:55,429 --> 01:02:57,749 - They volunteered because they realized 1444 01:02:57,789 --> 01:02:59,509 that our revolution is necessary. 1445 01:02:59,549 --> 01:03:00,109 - They didn't change side based on principle, 1446 01:03:00,109 --> 01:03:01,589 - They didn't change side based on principle, 1447 01:03:01,629 --> 01:03:03,709 they changed side because they saw that history 1448 01:03:03,709 --> 01:03:04,789 was about to change. 1449 01:03:04,829 --> 01:03:06,109 Their intent was to save their own necks, 1450 01:03:06,109 --> 01:03:07,189 Their intent was to save their own necks, 1451 01:03:07,229 --> 01:03:08,629 and they will turn that back on you 1452 01:03:08,629 --> 01:03:11,349 if they see something better coming around the corner. 1453 01:03:12,229 --> 01:03:13,549 - Would you blame them? 1454 01:03:15,829 --> 01:03:18,109 - An army without a backbone is like a parishioner 1455 01:03:18,109 --> 01:03:18,869 - An army without a backbone is like a parishioner 1456 01:03:18,909 --> 01:03:19,909 without a church. 1457 01:03:21,909 --> 01:03:23,869 I have been speaking the entire time about 1458 01:03:23,909 --> 01:03:24,109 what's important to my believers in nation, 1459 01:03:24,109 --> 01:03:25,909 what's important to my believers in nation, 1460 01:03:25,949 --> 01:03:27,949 but if I'm not allowed to function, 1461 01:03:27,949 --> 01:03:30,029 there is no point to this meeting. 1462 01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:36,109 - And according to you, what are these issues? 1463 01:03:36,109 --> 01:03:37,629 - And according to you, what are these issues? 1464 01:03:39,469 --> 01:03:41,829 - One for example, on the edges of the city, 1465 01:03:41,869 --> 01:03:42,109 in the poorest neighborhoods, where according to you, 1466 01:03:42,109 --> 01:03:44,669 in the poorest neighborhoods, where according to you, 1467 01:03:44,669 --> 01:03:46,949 you once for the human rights of the ordinary man, 1468 01:03:46,989 --> 01:03:48,109 camps are being built with barbwire fences. 1469 01:03:48,109 --> 01:03:50,829 camps are being built with barbwire fences. 1470 01:03:50,869 --> 01:03:52,829 Every day, these so-called prisoners in these camps 1471 01:03:52,869 --> 01:03:54,109 are taken to military courts or simply disappear. 1472 01:03:54,109 --> 01:03:55,589 are taken to military courts or simply disappear. 1473 01:03:55,629 --> 01:03:58,069 These are ordinary men whose only guilt 1474 01:03:58,109 --> 01:04:00,109 is that they were forced to live under fascism. 1475 01:04:00,149 --> 01:04:01,749 - They could have joined us. 1476 01:04:01,749 --> 01:04:02,909 - They're not like the Chetniks. 1477 01:04:02,949 --> 01:04:06,109 - I don't see a problem in our vetting process. 1478 01:04:06,109 --> 01:04:07,109 - I don't see a problem in our vetting process. 1479 01:04:08,909 --> 01:04:10,829 We must be certain that those who remain 1480 01:04:10,869 --> 01:04:12,109 are steadfast in their belief in anti-fascism. 1481 01:04:12,109 --> 01:04:14,069 are steadfast in their belief in anti-fascism. 1482 01:04:14,109 --> 01:04:16,509 Besides if our camps are so terrifying, 1483 01:04:16,549 --> 01:04:18,109 what would you call Jasenovac? 1484 01:04:19,509 --> 01:04:21,029 How many were killed there. 1485 01:04:21,069 --> 01:04:24,109 - A house taken by the Ustase, gets taken by the communists. 1486 01:04:24,109 --> 01:04:24,269 - A house taken by the Ustase, gets taken by the communists. 1487 01:04:24,309 --> 01:04:25,349 Account build by the Nazis, 1488 01:04:25,389 --> 01:04:26,989 it justifies one build by the communists, 1489 01:04:27,029 --> 01:04:28,789 and round and round we go. 1490 01:04:28,829 --> 01:04:30,109 I sent a letter, I'm sure you know about directly to Pavelic 1491 01:04:30,109 --> 01:04:32,189 I sent a letter, I'm sure you know about directly to Pavelic 1492 01:04:32,229 --> 01:04:34,189 everybody in Zagreb knows I openly stated 1493 01:04:34,229 --> 01:04:36,109 that Jasenovac was disgraced for all Croatians. 1494 01:04:36,109 --> 01:04:36,869 that Jasenovac was disgraced for all Croatians. 1495 01:04:36,869 --> 01:04:38,949 That is why I ended up on the unfavorable list 1496 01:04:38,989 --> 01:04:40,149 in the previous system. 1497 01:04:59,869 --> 01:05:00,109 - It's well-known that you met with Pavelic. 1498 01:05:00,109 --> 01:05:02,389 - It's well-known that you met with Pavelic. 1499 01:05:02,429 --> 01:05:04,829 - Yes, according to protocol. 1500 01:05:04,869 --> 01:05:06,109 After the Croatian state was founded I was obliged to. 1501 01:05:06,109 --> 01:05:07,869 After the Croatian state was founded I was obliged to. 1502 01:05:07,909 --> 01:05:09,749 The same way I'm respecting your invitation 1503 01:05:09,789 --> 01:05:11,749 as the leader of the new Yugoslavia. 1504 01:05:11,749 --> 01:05:12,109 And the same way I'd respect 1505 01:05:12,109 --> 01:05:12,989 And the same way I'd respect 1506 01:05:13,029 --> 01:05:14,949 if one day someone else was sitting across from me 1507 01:05:14,989 --> 01:05:15,869 where you are right now. 1508 01:05:15,909 --> 01:05:18,109 - Let's not get ahead of ourselves. 1509 01:05:18,109 --> 01:05:18,309 - Let's not get ahead of ourselves. 1510 01:05:19,909 --> 01:05:22,709 - If I told you, I said the same thing to Pavelic 1511 01:05:22,749 --> 01:05:24,109 and he said those same words you just said to me, 1512 01:05:24,109 --> 01:05:25,189 and he said those same words you just said to me, 1513 01:05:25,229 --> 01:05:27,189 you would label me a liar. 1514 01:05:27,229 --> 01:05:29,909 Nothing lasts forever, at least of all politics. 1515 01:05:30,829 --> 01:05:34,109 - I'm willing to bet that I last a little longer than him. 1516 01:05:36,869 --> 01:05:39,469 - I warned Pavelic, and the members of parliament, 1517 01:05:39,509 --> 01:05:41,789 once they institute a race laws in 1941 1518 01:05:41,829 --> 01:05:42,109 in front of St. Mark's church, that God's laws were supreme, 1519 01:05:42,109 --> 01:05:44,909 in front of St. Mark's church, that God's laws were supreme, 1520 01:05:44,949 --> 01:05:47,149 and that we should all be ruled by them. 1521 01:05:47,949 --> 01:05:48,109 From that moment on his relationship with me 1522 01:05:48,109 --> 01:05:50,069 From that moment on his relationship with me 1523 01:05:50,069 --> 01:05:52,109 was nothing more than courteous at best. 1524 01:05:55,989 --> 01:05:58,029 - And towards the end of the war, 1525 01:05:58,949 --> 01:06:00,109 you reached out to Pavelic. 1526 01:06:00,109 --> 01:06:00,389 you reached out to Pavelic. 1527 01:06:03,269 --> 01:06:05,749 - Yes, in 1944. 1528 01:06:05,789 --> 01:06:06,109 When Hitler and his allies were beginning to lose the w, 1529 01:06:06,109 --> 01:06:07,909 When Hitler and his allies were beginning to lose the w, 1530 01:06:07,949 --> 01:06:10,029 I wanted to save what could be saved. 1531 01:06:10,829 --> 01:06:12,109 For the sake of our people who are tricked into something 1532 01:06:12,109 --> 01:06:12,789 For the sake of our people who are tricked into something 1533 01:06:12,829 --> 01:06:14,509 they were never part of. 1534 01:06:14,549 --> 01:06:16,509 He arrogantly and flatly refused me. 1535 01:06:17,229 --> 01:06:18,109 - It also says in the reports that the occupiers 1536 01:06:18,109 --> 01:06:20,149 - It also says in the reports that the occupiers 1537 01:06:20,189 --> 01:06:23,829 held talks with you just a month ago before they retread 1538 01:06:23,869 --> 01:06:24,109 asking you as Archbishop to take over power. 1539 01:06:24,109 --> 01:06:26,429 asking you as Archbishop to take over power. 1540 01:06:27,269 --> 01:06:29,909 This means that you are an authority to them. 1541 01:06:29,949 --> 01:06:30,109 - I was not made aware of that. 1542 01:06:30,109 --> 01:06:32,269 - I was not made aware of that. 1543 01:06:32,309 --> 01:06:35,109 But I know I was a persona non grata for some time. 1544 01:06:51,629 --> 01:06:54,109 I think, you know me better than my own flesh and blood. 1545 01:06:54,109 --> 01:06:54,629 I think, you know me better than my own flesh and blood. 1546 01:06:55,869 --> 01:06:59,909 - It also says that before their final retreat, 1547 01:06:59,949 --> 01:07:00,109 you paid a visit to the occupiers. 1548 01:07:00,109 --> 01:07:02,109 you paid a visit to the occupiers. 1549 01:07:03,269 --> 01:07:06,109 Were you saying your goodbyes to them voluntary? 1550 01:07:06,109 --> 01:07:07,829 Were you saying your goodbyes to them voluntary? 1551 01:07:07,829 --> 01:07:10,509 - I requested from Ustases that they in the Germans, 1552 01:07:10,549 --> 01:07:12,109 de-mine Zagreb before fleeing it? 1553 01:07:12,109 --> 01:07:12,829 de-mine Zagreb before fleeing it? 1554 01:07:12,869 --> 01:07:14,869 - I for one would have had them de-mine the city 1555 01:07:14,909 --> 01:07:16,669 by making them walk across all the fields 1556 01:07:16,709 --> 01:07:17,989 they placed the mines in. 1557 01:07:18,029 --> 01:07:18,109 - Revenge. 1558 01:07:18,109 --> 01:07:18,989 - Revenge. 1559 01:07:19,029 --> 01:07:20,109 - Justification. 1560 01:07:21,029 --> 01:07:22,869 Reap as you sow. 1561 01:07:24,029 --> 01:07:24,109 (door opens) 1562 01:07:24,109 --> 01:07:26,469 (door opens) 1563 01:07:44,869 --> 01:07:46,589 - If those mines had remained, 1564 01:07:46,589 --> 01:07:47,949 many civilians would have been killed 1565 01:07:47,989 --> 01:07:48,109 along with your soldiers. 1566 01:07:48,109 --> 01:07:49,189 along with your soldiers. 1567 01:07:51,349 --> 01:07:53,829 - When the Partisan army entered Zagreb, 1568 01:07:53,869 --> 01:07:54,109 the man who sat in that chair when you walked in, 1569 01:07:54,109 --> 01:07:57,029 the man who sat in that chair when you walked in, 1570 01:07:57,029 --> 01:07:59,749 the president of our Croatian government, 1571 01:07:59,789 --> 01:08:00,109 Dr. Vladimir Bakaric- - I recognize him. 1572 01:08:00,109 --> 01:08:01,069 Dr. Vladimir Bakaric- - I recognize him. 1573 01:08:01,109 --> 01:08:02,949 - ...appeared before your residence 1574 01:08:02,989 --> 01:08:05,509 yet no one had the courtesy to greet him. 1575 01:08:07,949 --> 01:08:10,109 Is that how liberate is welcomed? 1576 01:08:10,149 --> 01:08:12,109 - I recall that my people told me three dusty cars 1577 01:08:12,109 --> 01:08:13,709 - I recall that my people told me three dusty cars 1578 01:08:13,749 --> 01:08:15,389 with soldiers were circling out cathedral 1579 01:08:15,429 --> 01:08:16,709 armed to the teeth. 1580 01:08:16,749 --> 01:08:18,109 - Armed or not, it was your duty to greet them with respect. 1581 01:08:18,109 --> 01:08:21,749 - Armed or not, it was your duty to greet them with respect. 1582 01:08:21,789 --> 01:08:24,109 - Our doors are open to anyone who wishes to enter 1583 01:08:24,109 --> 01:08:24,309 - Our doors are open to anyone who wishes to enter 1584 01:08:24,309 --> 01:08:25,869 just not those carrying weapons. 1585 01:08:25,909 --> 01:08:27,949 - They deserve to be greeted as heroes. 1586 01:08:27,989 --> 01:08:30,109 - Zagreb was engulfed in chaos in those days, 1587 01:08:30,109 --> 01:08:30,789 - Zagreb was engulfed in chaos in those days, 1588 01:08:30,789 --> 01:08:31,829 the government was changing. 1589 01:08:31,829 --> 01:08:33,749 We didn't know who was in those cars. 1590 01:08:35,789 --> 01:08:36,109 - And that's a lie. 1591 01:08:36,109 --> 01:08:36,949 - And that's a lie. 1592 01:08:43,509 --> 01:08:45,229 The message was sent informing you 1593 01:08:45,269 --> 01:08:46,949 that the president of our Croatian government 1594 01:08:46,989 --> 01:08:48,109 would be visiting you upon our arrival in Zagreb. 1595 01:08:48,109 --> 01:08:49,909 would be visiting you upon our arrival in Zagreb. 1596 01:08:49,949 --> 01:08:51,709 Your people never responded. 1597 01:08:51,749 --> 01:08:53,789 - I was never given such information. 1598 01:09:04,749 --> 01:09:06,109 - This is a report from one of our officers 1599 01:09:06,109 --> 01:09:07,829 - This is a report from one of our officers 1600 01:09:08,869 --> 01:09:10,869 stating that the message was received 1601 01:09:10,909 --> 01:09:12,109 and signed for by one Svetozar Ritting, 1602 01:09:12,109 --> 01:09:14,749 and signed for by one Svetozar Ritting, 1603 01:09:14,789 --> 01:09:16,509 isn't he your closest associate. 1604 01:09:17,349 --> 01:09:18,109 (suspenseful music) 1605 01:09:18,109 --> 01:09:20,469 (suspenseful music) 1606 01:09:36,909 --> 01:09:39,949 - One man's account does not make it a true account. 1607 01:09:41,069 --> 01:09:42,109 - You don't say. 1608 01:09:44,669 --> 01:09:45,509 You know this? 1609 01:09:50,949 --> 01:09:54,109 "This is to certify that I Svetozar Ritting 1610 01:09:54,109 --> 01:09:54,789 "This is to certify that I Svetozar Ritting 1611 01:09:54,789 --> 01:09:58,989 I've received the request that Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac" 1612 01:10:00,629 --> 01:10:02,349 with a signature at the bottom. 1613 01:10:02,389 --> 01:10:03,989 - I see it, yes. 1614 01:10:05,709 --> 01:10:06,109 - So either you or your associate is lying. 1615 01:10:06,109 --> 01:10:10,829 - So either you or your associate is lying. 1616 01:10:10,989 --> 01:10:12,109 I am not and he is. 1617 01:10:12,109 --> 01:10:12,589 I am not and he is. 1618 01:10:14,989 --> 01:10:17,829 (dramatic music) 1619 01:10:41,589 --> 01:10:42,109 - Yes. 1620 01:10:42,109 --> 01:10:42,709 - Yes. 1621 01:10:42,709 --> 01:10:44,869 - He told me that an officer came one evening, 1622 01:10:44,909 --> 01:10:46,469 informing him that one of our parishioners 1623 01:10:46,509 --> 01:10:48,069 had been involved in an accident 1624 01:10:48,109 --> 01:10:49,509 and that he needed confirmation, 1625 01:10:49,549 --> 01:10:52,109 that indeed it was the same that we all knew. 1626 01:10:53,909 --> 01:10:54,109 - Can you trust those closest to you? 1627 01:10:54,109 --> 01:10:56,109 - Can you trust those closest to you? 1628 01:10:57,909 --> 01:11:00,069 From what I gather your associate is not someone 1629 01:11:00,109 --> 01:11:01,789 who likes you very much. 1630 01:11:01,829 --> 01:11:04,029 I thought loyalty was the foundation of the church. 1631 01:11:04,069 --> 01:11:06,069 - I had no knowledge that anyone was coming. 1632 01:11:06,109 --> 01:11:09,309 - Whether you did or you didn't, would it make a difference? 1633 01:11:10,109 --> 01:11:12,109 The fact is you didn't think we'd reach Zagreb, did you? 1634 01:11:12,109 --> 01:11:13,749 The fact is you didn't think we'd reach Zagreb, did you? 1635 01:11:13,789 --> 01:11:15,389 Certainly not as fast as we did. 1636 01:11:16,549 --> 01:11:18,109 You have been preaching against communism from day one. 1637 01:11:18,109 --> 01:11:19,869 You have been preaching against communism from day one. 1638 01:11:19,909 --> 01:11:23,869 These are facts, indisputable facts. 1639 01:11:23,909 --> 01:11:24,109 I didn't think you'd reach Zagreb fast. 1640 01:11:24,109 --> 01:11:26,149 I didn't think you'd reach Zagreb fast. 1641 01:11:26,989 --> 01:11:28,389 - Finally, you admit it. 1642 01:11:29,789 --> 01:11:30,109 So could it surprise you that I had no other option, 1643 01:11:30,109 --> 01:11:32,709 So could it surprise you that I had no other option, 1644 01:11:32,749 --> 01:11:33,949 but to isolate you? 1645 01:11:34,629 --> 01:11:36,109 - It's funny how so many words can be used 1646 01:11:36,109 --> 01:11:36,429 - It's funny how so many words can be used 1647 01:11:36,429 --> 01:11:37,869 to mask the actual meaning. 1648 01:11:37,909 --> 01:11:39,349 I am the only word that can truly paint 1649 01:11:39,389 --> 01:11:40,109 what was done to me. 1650 01:11:40,149 --> 01:11:41,989 - And what is that word? 1651 01:11:42,029 --> 01:11:42,109 Detention? 1652 01:11:42,109 --> 01:11:43,669 Detention? 1653 01:11:43,709 --> 01:11:44,829 - Imprisonment. 1654 01:11:46,829 --> 01:11:48,109 What surprised me more is that you free me from prison 1655 01:11:48,109 --> 01:11:49,069 What surprised me more is that you free me from prison 1656 01:11:49,109 --> 01:11:51,629 two days ago and asked me to come here today. 1657 01:11:54,749 --> 01:11:59,509 - You would like to paint me as someone void of mercy. 1658 01:12:01,669 --> 01:12:03,069 But when I tell you that many proposed 1659 01:12:03,109 --> 01:12:05,789 you'll be relieved permanently of your duties, 1660 01:12:05,829 --> 01:12:06,109 and I was the one who said, no, let me meet this, man. 1661 01:12:06,109 --> 01:12:08,949 and I was the one who said, no, let me meet this, man. 1662 01:12:08,989 --> 01:12:10,029 Let me look into his eyes. 1663 01:12:10,069 --> 01:12:12,109 when he tells me his version of the truth. 1664 01:12:12,109 --> 01:12:13,189 when he tells me his version of the truth. 1665 01:12:14,069 --> 01:12:16,949 - And the army you defeated wanted me gone as well. 1666 01:12:16,949 --> 01:12:18,109 - That's a convenient statement. 1667 01:12:18,109 --> 01:12:18,789 - That's a convenient statement. 1668 01:12:19,829 --> 01:12:21,269 Can you prove its validity? 1669 01:12:21,269 --> 01:12:22,589 - And where's the proof of your army 1670 01:12:22,629 --> 01:12:23,869 you want to become besides you saying it? 1671 01:12:23,909 --> 01:12:24,109 The difference, being that I'm the head commander 1672 01:12:24,109 --> 01:12:26,429 The difference, being that I'm the head commander 1673 01:12:26,469 --> 01:12:29,269 of the Yugoslav army, and they have to listen to me. 1674 01:12:30,869 --> 01:12:33,229 I have many subordinates, but above me is nothing 1675 01:12:33,269 --> 01:12:35,109 and no one, least of all your God. 1676 01:12:36,869 --> 01:12:39,549 - Extremists on the right one to be gone. 1677 01:12:39,589 --> 01:12:42,109 There was not curation enough based on my sentence 1678 01:12:42,109 --> 01:12:42,709 There was not curation enough based on my sentence 1679 01:12:42,709 --> 01:12:45,149 to defend the innocent, that is the duty of the church. 1680 01:12:45,189 --> 01:12:47,429 There was credible information relayed to me 1681 01:12:47,429 --> 01:12:48,109 by the former military Tatia, 1682 01:12:48,109 --> 01:12:48,949 by the former military Tatia, 1683 01:12:48,949 --> 01:12:49,989 the German command in Zagreb, 1684 01:12:50,029 --> 01:12:52,829 that I was in the liquidationist. 1685 01:12:52,869 --> 01:12:54,109 - So you're saying the Germans saved you from assassination. 1686 01:12:54,109 --> 01:12:56,189 - So you're saying the Germans saved you from assassination. 1687 01:12:56,229 --> 01:12:57,949 - Oh, they had the last word on everything, 1688 01:12:57,949 --> 01:13:00,109 so yes, it's likely. 1689 01:13:00,109 --> 01:13:00,549 so yes, it's likely. 1690 01:13:01,269 --> 01:13:02,589 Assassination of the murder of the highest 1691 01:13:02,629 --> 01:13:03,989 serving Catholic church official 1692 01:13:04,029 --> 01:13:06,109 would do that government more harm than good. 1693 01:13:06,109 --> 01:13:06,469 would do that government more harm than good. 1694 01:13:06,469 --> 01:13:09,109 And me being gone, won't do you any good either. 1695 01:13:10,469 --> 01:13:12,109 (phone ringing) 1696 01:13:12,109 --> 01:13:13,189 (phone ringing) 1697 01:13:14,909 --> 01:13:17,069 - Yes, tell them to wait a little long. 1698 01:13:17,909 --> 01:13:18,109 All right, I'll come get some coffee. 1699 01:13:18,109 --> 01:13:19,989 All right, I'll come get some coffee. 1700 01:13:41,109 --> 01:13:42,109 They're waiting for me to call them in. 1701 01:13:42,109 --> 01:13:43,109 They're waiting for me to call them in. 1702 01:13:45,869 --> 01:13:48,109 The two of us need to come to an agreement on the basic idea 1703 01:13:48,109 --> 01:13:49,029 The two of us need to come to an agreement on the basic idea 1704 01:13:49,029 --> 01:13:50,989 of how the church of Croatia should go on. 1705 01:13:50,989 --> 01:13:52,629 - The church will remain as it has. 1706 01:13:52,669 --> 01:13:54,109 - Archbishop time is passing and Belgrade's waiting. 1707 01:13:54,109 --> 01:13:55,749 - Archbishop time is passing and Belgrade's waiting. 1708 01:13:55,789 --> 01:13:56,949 I have to tell you that a lot of people 1709 01:13:56,989 --> 01:13:59,189 were not very enthusiastic about our meeting. 1710 01:13:59,229 --> 01:14:00,109 - Belgrade has always been against me. 1711 01:14:00,109 --> 01:14:00,909 - Belgrade has always been against me. 1712 01:14:00,949 --> 01:14:03,349 - And why do you think that is? 1713 01:14:03,389 --> 01:14:04,509 - I am a Croat. 1714 01:14:04,549 --> 01:14:05,469 - That's all. 1715 01:14:05,509 --> 01:14:05,989 - That's plenty. 1716 01:14:05,989 --> 01:14:06,109 - So am I. 1717 01:14:06,109 --> 01:14:06,989 - So am I. 1718 01:14:07,029 --> 01:14:08,789 I've never presented itself as a problem 1719 01:14:08,829 --> 01:14:09,949 when I was there. 1720 01:14:09,949 --> 01:14:11,629 - You share the same ideals. 1721 01:14:11,669 --> 01:14:12,109 To you that is a stronger bond than one through faith 1722 01:14:12,109 --> 01:14:14,109 To you that is a stronger bond than one through faith 1723 01:14:14,149 --> 01:14:15,109 because you have none. 1724 01:14:15,149 --> 01:14:17,469 - Belgrade wasn't always against you. 1725 01:14:18,229 --> 01:14:20,549 King Alexander himself gave permission for you 1726 01:14:20,589 --> 01:14:22,789 to be the head of the Catholic church of Yugoslavia. 1727 01:14:22,829 --> 01:14:24,109 - He understood that the biggest obstacles the kingdom faced 1728 01:14:24,109 --> 01:14:25,549 - He understood that the biggest obstacles the kingdom faced 1729 01:14:25,589 --> 01:14:29,269 was how it behave towards occurrence in the Catholic church. 1730 01:14:29,269 --> 01:14:30,109 - Is it true that you once told the King that the church 1731 01:14:30,109 --> 01:14:31,869 - Is it true that you once told the King that the church 1732 01:14:31,909 --> 01:14:34,029 is the only institution capable of opposing 1733 01:14:34,069 --> 01:14:35,589 the approach and communism. 1734 01:14:35,629 --> 01:14:36,109 - Something in that sense was said, 1735 01:14:36,109 --> 01:14:37,349 - Something in that sense was said, 1736 01:14:37,389 --> 01:14:38,869 and I still hold that to be true. 1737 01:14:38,909 --> 01:14:41,709 - That the church would defeat communism. 1738 01:14:41,749 --> 01:14:42,109 - Time will tell. 1739 01:14:42,109 --> 01:14:42,669 - Time will tell. 1740 01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:45,829 - Two months after speaking with you, 1741 01:14:45,869 --> 01:14:48,109 the King dies at the hands of an assassin in France. 1742 01:14:48,109 --> 01:14:48,869 the King dies at the hands of an assassin in France. 1743 01:14:48,869 --> 01:14:51,909 Some people believe you were involved in this. 1744 01:14:51,949 --> 01:14:54,109 - They may blame me for potential floods, tidal waves, 1745 01:14:54,109 --> 01:14:54,869 - They may blame me for potential floods, tidal waves, 1746 01:14:54,909 --> 01:14:56,669 earthquakes, I wouldn't be surprised. 1747 01:14:56,709 --> 01:14:58,549 - No, they wouldn't blame me for these things, 1748 01:14:58,589 --> 01:14:59,989 they would blame God. 1749 01:15:00,829 --> 01:15:04,149 - King Alexander did confirm me as the Archbishop, 1750 01:15:04,189 --> 01:15:05,869 but only off the two previous options 1751 01:15:05,909 --> 01:15:06,109 were deemed more nationalistic than me. 1752 01:15:06,109 --> 01:15:07,909 were deemed more nationalistic than me. 1753 01:15:07,949 --> 01:15:09,789 - I guess the King was misinformed. 1754 01:15:09,829 --> 01:15:12,029 - The fact that I served in the army gave the impression- 1755 01:15:12,069 --> 01:15:12,109 - You would be obedient. 1756 01:15:12,109 --> 01:15:13,989 - You would be obedient. 1757 01:15:14,029 --> 01:15:15,389 - Perhaps. 1758 01:15:15,389 --> 01:15:17,829 But I had no desire in becoming Archbishop. 1759 01:15:17,869 --> 01:15:18,109 I felt I wasn't worthy. 1760 01:15:18,109 --> 01:15:19,749 I felt I wasn't worthy. 1761 01:15:19,789 --> 01:15:21,469 - Then why did you accept? 1762 01:15:21,509 --> 01:15:23,469 - I obeyed the calling in the name of the cross 1763 01:15:23,509 --> 01:15:24,109 that I wear around my neck. 1764 01:15:24,109 --> 01:15:25,149 that I wear around my neck. 1765 01:15:27,709 --> 01:15:29,829 - My late mother was just as devout. 1766 01:15:33,669 --> 01:15:35,109 She bore a lot of children. 1767 01:15:36,629 --> 01:15:37,389 - Did she pray often? 1768 01:15:37,429 --> 01:15:38,709 - Oh yes. 1769 01:15:38,709 --> 01:15:41,469 Although I think God probably wasn't paying attention. 1770 01:15:42,709 --> 01:15:44,949 - You find it a weakness to pray. 1771 01:15:44,989 --> 01:15:46,389 - I find it a warm blanket 1772 01:15:46,429 --> 01:15:48,109 when nature surrounding us becomes cold. 1773 01:15:48,109 --> 01:15:48,869 when nature surrounding us becomes cold. 1774 01:15:48,909 --> 01:15:52,109 - I had heard you suffered a terrible bout of pneumonia 1775 01:15:52,149 --> 01:15:53,989 that you almost died. 1776 01:15:53,989 --> 01:15:54,109 - That's true. 1777 01:15:54,109 --> 01:15:55,749 - That's true. 1778 01:15:55,749 --> 01:15:57,309 I endured. 1779 01:15:57,309 --> 01:16:00,029 - Did you pray in that moment? 1780 01:16:03,949 --> 01:16:06,109 (dramatic suspenseful music) 1781 01:16:06,109 --> 01:16:07,949 (dramatic suspenseful music) 1782 01:17:09,229 --> 01:17:12,109 - I've endure when things become tough, 1783 01:17:12,109 --> 01:17:12,509 - I've endure when things become tough, 1784 01:17:12,549 --> 01:17:14,589 even seeming insurmountable. 1785 01:17:14,629 --> 01:17:16,269 It stirs something inside of me. 1786 01:17:16,309 --> 01:17:18,109 - You didn't answer my question. 1787 01:17:18,109 --> 01:17:18,589 - You didn't answer my question. 1788 01:17:18,589 --> 01:17:20,709 - I always sleep, uncovered. 1789 01:17:21,949 --> 01:17:24,109 My mother would yell at me for that, old habits. 1790 01:17:24,109 --> 01:17:25,069 My mother would yell at me for that, old habits. 1791 01:17:25,109 --> 01:17:27,069 - It's never too late to change. 1792 01:17:27,109 --> 01:17:28,069 If it is for the good. 1793 01:17:28,109 --> 01:17:30,109 - You need to acknowledge the reality 1794 01:17:30,109 --> 01:17:30,789 - You need to acknowledge the reality 1795 01:17:30,829 --> 01:17:32,709 of your current situation, Aloysius, 1796 01:17:33,709 --> 01:17:36,109 it's useless to go to mass in the afternoon. 1797 01:17:36,109 --> 01:17:36,149 it's useless to go to mass in the afternoon. 1798 01:17:36,149 --> 01:17:37,229 Time is running out. 1799 01:17:37,269 --> 01:17:39,309 - I fear we Will never come to a resolution. 1800 01:17:39,349 --> 01:17:42,109 - We can, if we want to, both of us, 1801 01:17:42,109 --> 01:17:42,149 - We can, if we want to, both of us, 1802 01:17:42,149 --> 01:17:44,789 we hold the keys to how this land will go on. 1803 01:17:44,829 --> 01:17:46,829 What kind of a world we wish to live in. 1804 01:17:46,869 --> 01:17:48,109 We can agree, that help is what people need, yes? 1805 01:17:48,109 --> 01:17:49,829 We can agree, that help is what people need, yes? 1806 01:17:50,829 --> 01:17:54,109 Our approach is a different, but our goal is the same. 1807 01:17:54,109 --> 01:17:54,389 Our approach is a different, but our goal is the same. 1808 01:17:55,429 --> 01:17:57,709 I don't believe in life after death. 1809 01:17:57,709 --> 01:18:00,029 And I certainly don't avoid the pleasures 1810 01:18:00,069 --> 01:18:00,109 of this earthly existence, as you can see, 1811 01:18:00,109 --> 01:18:02,389 of this earthly existence, as you can see, 1812 01:18:02,429 --> 01:18:04,669 but not a single soul can say that I haven't made 1813 01:18:04,709 --> 01:18:06,109 great sacrifices for the beliefs that I fight for. 1814 01:18:06,109 --> 01:18:07,269 great sacrifices for the beliefs that I fight for. 1815 01:18:07,309 --> 01:18:08,909 Going into the forest with barely 1816 01:18:08,949 --> 01:18:10,389 a hundred like-minded idealists, 1817 01:18:10,429 --> 01:18:12,109 in 1941 when everybody believed that Hitler would prevail. 1818 01:18:12,109 --> 01:18:12,869 in 1941 when everybody believed that Hitler would prevail. 1819 01:18:12,909 --> 01:18:14,909 - If it weren't for the long Russian winters 1820 01:18:14,949 --> 01:18:16,589 that also took down Napoleon, 1821 01:18:16,589 --> 01:18:17,989 nothing would have been able to rescue you 1822 01:18:18,029 --> 01:18:18,109 and your like like-minded idealists, not even communism. 1823 01:18:18,109 --> 01:18:21,509 and your like like-minded idealists, not even communism. 1824 01:18:22,389 --> 01:18:24,109 Then the west united saving Stalin, 1825 01:18:24,109 --> 01:18:24,229 Then the west united saving Stalin, 1826 01:18:24,269 --> 01:18:25,429 giving them a free pass. 1827 01:18:25,469 --> 01:18:26,829 - Poetic justice. 1828 01:18:26,869 --> 01:18:29,869 Everybody has to pay the price sooner or later. 1829 01:18:29,909 --> 01:18:30,109 - And if the British and the Americans 1830 01:18:30,109 --> 01:18:31,229 - And if the British and the Americans 1831 01:18:31,269 --> 01:18:32,349 had landed on the Adriatic, 1832 01:18:32,389 --> 01:18:33,629 then the story would perhaps be written 1833 01:18:33,669 --> 01:18:35,029 in a completely different line. 1834 01:18:35,069 --> 01:18:36,109 - Would you forgotten that the British and the Americans 1835 01:18:36,109 --> 01:18:37,109 - Would you forgotten that the British and the Americans 1836 01:18:37,149 --> 01:18:39,829 were not fond of Marx and his ideas. 1837 01:18:39,869 --> 01:18:42,109 - Just last year, I assured Prime Minister Churchill 1838 01:18:42,109 --> 01:18:44,869 - Just last year, I assured Prime Minister Churchill 1839 01:18:44,909 --> 01:18:48,029 that I wasn't going to introduce communism to Yugoslavia. 1840 01:18:48,829 --> 01:18:51,989 - Then you're not an idealist, you were a politician. 1841 01:18:52,029 --> 01:18:52,989 another chameleon. 1842 01:18:53,029 --> 01:18:54,109 - I'm a survivor. 1843 01:18:54,909 --> 01:18:57,549 My goal is to preserve Yugoslavia at any cost, 1844 01:18:57,589 --> 01:18:59,149 the imperialist, as well as the Soviets, 1845 01:18:59,149 --> 01:19:00,109 let us down at Yalta, and still I managed to get aid 1846 01:19:00,109 --> 01:19:03,989 let us down at Yalta, and still I managed to get aid 1847 01:19:03,989 --> 01:19:06,109 from both the west and the east. 1848 01:19:06,109 --> 01:19:06,149 from both the west and the east. 1849 01:19:06,149 --> 01:19:09,829 - Marxism or communism of any kind is not going to save us 1850 01:19:09,869 --> 01:19:12,109 nor the nations you are uniting is new Yugoslavia, 1851 01:19:12,109 --> 01:19:13,589 nor the nations you are uniting is new Yugoslavia, 1852 01:19:13,589 --> 01:19:15,429 but now it is being misused to mask 1853 01:19:15,469 --> 01:19:17,149 or perverse horror on the horizon. 1854 01:19:17,989 --> 01:19:18,109 - I insisted in the politic bureau 1855 01:19:18,109 --> 01:19:19,749 - I insisted in the politic bureau 1856 01:19:19,749 --> 01:19:22,629 that the Croatia-Serbia issue is the most important one 1857 01:19:22,669 --> 01:19:24,109 that needs to be solved with the help of the Orthodox 1858 01:19:24,109 --> 01:19:25,229 that needs to be solved with the help of the Orthodox 1859 01:19:25,269 --> 01:19:26,789 and the Catholic churches. 1860 01:19:27,549 --> 01:19:30,109 But in Belgrade, they say that you can't be talked to. 1861 01:19:30,109 --> 01:19:30,829 But in Belgrade, they say that you can't be talked to. 1862 01:19:30,829 --> 01:19:31,869 And after speaking to you now, 1863 01:19:31,909 --> 01:19:34,029 I'd say that's a bit of an understatement. 1864 01:19:34,829 --> 01:19:36,109 Stepinac is stubborn, they'd say, a fundamentalist. 1865 01:19:36,109 --> 01:19:38,429 Stepinac is stubborn, they'd say, a fundamentalist. 1866 01:19:40,229 --> 01:19:42,109 And I'd use the argument that the Germans 1867 01:19:42,109 --> 01:19:42,389 And I'd use the argument that the Germans 1868 01:19:42,389 --> 01:19:45,029 killed your brother in your hometown Kracic, 1869 01:19:45,069 --> 01:19:48,029 because they knew how close the two of you were. 1870 01:19:48,069 --> 01:19:48,109 And Belgrade's response is that in your hometown, 1871 01:19:48,109 --> 01:19:51,749 And Belgrade's response is that in your hometown, 1872 01:19:51,789 --> 01:19:54,109 we had one of the bloodiest battles of our whole campaign. 1873 01:19:54,109 --> 01:19:55,069 we had one of the bloodiest battles of our whole campaign. 1874 01:19:55,109 --> 01:19:58,669 In a single day in 1943, 500 of our fighters died. 1875 01:19:58,669 --> 01:20:00,109 - Now my hometown is the enemy. 1876 01:20:00,109 --> 01:20:00,149 - Now my hometown is the enemy. 1877 01:20:00,189 --> 01:20:02,709 - Do you see now, how far this reaches? 1878 01:20:02,749 --> 01:20:03,949 You say your neighbor killed your cat, 1879 01:20:03,989 --> 01:20:05,429 he proclaimed you killed his dog, 1880 01:20:05,469 --> 01:20:06,109 you say he poisoned your cow, 1881 01:20:06,109 --> 01:20:07,069 you say he poisoned your cow, 1882 01:20:07,109 --> 01:20:08,829 and in return, you burned down his stable. 1883 01:20:08,869 --> 01:20:11,429 This way another conflict in the future is certain, 1884 01:20:11,469 --> 01:20:12,109 and why must more blood to be spilled? 1885 01:20:12,109 --> 01:20:13,189 and why must more blood to be spilled? 1886 01:20:13,229 --> 01:20:15,309 - You have to first agree what version of history 1887 01:20:15,349 --> 01:20:16,429 is the accurate one. 1888 01:20:17,149 --> 01:20:18,109 You speak of a new beginning, 1889 01:20:18,109 --> 01:20:18,469 You speak of a new beginning, 1890 01:20:18,509 --> 01:20:20,669 but what has happening now since you've liberated Zagreb. 1891 01:20:20,669 --> 01:20:23,949 - I told you, this war didn't end 1892 01:20:23,949 --> 01:20:24,109 with the liberation of Zagreb. 1893 01:20:24,109 --> 01:20:24,949 with the liberation of Zagreb. 1894 01:20:24,989 --> 01:20:27,109 - But the war in Zagreb it's over, 1895 01:20:27,149 --> 01:20:29,949 and yet a large number of civilians, women, 1896 01:20:29,949 --> 01:20:30,109 children, the elderly, all throughout Croatia 1897 01:20:30,109 --> 01:20:31,909 children, the elderly, all throughout Croatia 1898 01:20:31,949 --> 01:20:33,829 are moving west fearing retaliation. 1899 01:20:33,829 --> 01:20:35,229 - If the enemy surrendered their arms, 1900 01:20:35,229 --> 01:20:36,109 nothing would happen to the civilians. 1901 01:20:36,109 --> 01:20:37,589 nothing would happen to the civilians. 1902 01:20:37,629 --> 01:20:38,789 - Surrendering to your units 1903 01:20:38,789 --> 01:20:39,949 would've been death to the soldiers. 1904 01:20:39,989 --> 01:20:41,549 - They are the enemy. 1905 01:20:41,589 --> 01:20:42,109 We have to radically cleanse our home. 1906 01:20:42,109 --> 01:20:43,789 We have to radically cleanse our home. 1907 01:20:43,829 --> 01:20:46,429 - What is happening is an Exodus of an entire nation, 1908 01:20:46,429 --> 01:20:48,109 unprecedented in Croatian history, 1909 01:20:48,109 --> 01:20:48,429 unprecedented in Croatian history, 1910 01:20:48,469 --> 01:20:50,989 thousands upon thousands of being killed. 1911 01:20:51,029 --> 01:20:53,949 I'm not blind to any man's desire to seek revenge. 1912 01:20:53,989 --> 01:20:54,109 However, primitive it is in my eyes, but civilian- 1913 01:20:54,109 --> 01:20:57,829 However, primitive it is in my eyes, but civilian- 1914 01:20:57,869 --> 01:21:00,109 - How many of the allies killed at the end of the war? 1915 01:21:00,109 --> 01:21:00,629 - How many of the allies killed at the end of the war? 1916 01:21:01,549 --> 01:21:04,069 Entire cities level to the ground. 1917 01:21:04,869 --> 01:21:06,109 Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden massacred and not accidentally. 1918 01:21:06,109 --> 01:21:09,549 Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden massacred and not accidentally. 1919 01:21:09,589 --> 01:21:10,349 - And how are they better? 1920 01:21:10,389 --> 01:21:11,269 - They are not! 1921 01:21:11,909 --> 01:21:12,109 But the winners get to define how their sins are remembered. 1922 01:21:12,109 --> 01:21:15,949 But the winners get to define how their sins are remembered. 1923 01:21:15,949 --> 01:21:17,189 I wouldn't even call them sins. 1924 01:21:17,229 --> 01:21:18,109 - What would you call them? 1925 01:21:18,149 --> 01:21:20,069 - Prevention of selective amnesia. 1926 01:21:20,069 --> 01:21:22,309 - Killing of 200,000 civilians is necessary 1927 01:21:22,349 --> 01:21:23,709 to prevent people from not forgetting. 1928 01:21:23,749 --> 01:21:24,109 - You have fallen under the influence of the enemies rumors. 1929 01:21:24,109 --> 01:21:26,269 - You have fallen under the influence of the enemies rumors. 1930 01:21:26,309 --> 01:21:27,909 - Entire families are being erased. 1931 01:21:27,909 --> 01:21:29,949 - The number you just stated is propaganda 1932 01:21:29,949 --> 01:21:30,109 spread by the enemy. 1933 01:21:30,109 --> 01:21:31,149 spread by the enemy. 1934 01:21:31,189 --> 01:21:33,869 You are treading through muddy waters, Archbishop. 1935 01:21:33,909 --> 01:21:36,109 - You can silence me and others for now, 1936 01:21:36,109 --> 01:21:36,189 - You can silence me and others for now, 1937 01:21:36,229 --> 01:21:38,429 but witnesses have escaped. 1938 01:21:38,429 --> 01:21:40,709 The truth will come out despite being locked in graves, 1939 01:21:40,749 --> 01:21:42,109 and pits all throughout this land. 1940 01:21:42,109 --> 01:21:42,149 and pits all throughout this land. 1941 01:21:42,189 --> 01:21:45,309 - We can agree that both sides have their graves and pits. 1942 01:21:48,949 --> 01:21:50,549 - I am supposed to keep silent? 1943 01:21:51,389 --> 01:21:54,109 Forget, in front of you even. 1944 01:21:54,109 --> 01:21:54,589 Forget, in front of you even. 1945 01:21:54,629 --> 01:21:56,989 A fellow Croat, a communist of all things 1946 01:21:57,029 --> 01:21:58,749 from a Catholic family, 1947 01:21:58,749 --> 01:22:00,109 a fighter for a new and more just world, as you say, 1948 01:22:00,109 --> 01:22:02,109 a fighter for a new and more just world, as you say, 1949 01:22:03,309 --> 01:22:05,909 I would betray the cross that I wear around my neck, 1950 01:22:05,949 --> 01:22:06,109 and a vow that I chose to live by 1951 01:22:06,109 --> 01:22:07,949 and a vow that I chose to live by 1952 01:22:07,949 --> 01:22:09,429 if I did not speak the truth. 1953 01:22:09,469 --> 01:22:10,789 Yes, the truth. 1954 01:22:11,909 --> 01:22:12,109 Not the truth as I see it, but the truth that is. 1955 01:22:12,109 --> 01:22:14,549 Not the truth as I see it, but the truth that is. 1956 01:22:15,909 --> 01:22:18,109 Belgrade has you blinded, yet you forget 1957 01:22:18,109 --> 01:22:18,549 Belgrade has you blinded, yet you forget 1958 01:22:18,589 --> 01:22:19,949 they would give away with you if you express 1959 01:22:19,989 --> 01:22:22,789 anything other than what they say is true and right. 1960 01:22:22,829 --> 01:22:24,109 - Have you considered that what you think of as the truth 1961 01:22:24,109 --> 01:22:25,949 - Have you considered that what you think of as the truth 1962 01:22:25,989 --> 01:22:27,469 might not be a such? 1963 01:22:29,229 --> 01:22:30,109 People can be wrong. 1964 01:22:30,109 --> 01:22:30,829 People can be wrong. 1965 01:22:30,869 --> 01:22:33,349 The truth is likely to be somewhere in the middle, 1966 01:22:33,349 --> 01:22:35,709 a place nobody wants to visit. 1967 01:22:35,749 --> 01:22:36,109 - The march of death of our people, yours too 1968 01:22:36,109 --> 01:22:37,589 - The march of death of our people, yours too 1969 01:22:37,629 --> 01:22:39,429 is happening now as we speak. 1970 01:22:39,469 --> 01:22:42,109 In times of peace, people are still being killed. 1971 01:22:42,149 --> 01:22:45,949 Croatians in your new Yugoslavia will not forgive or forget. 1972 01:22:45,989 --> 01:22:48,109 - No it must, that's in the Bible remember? 1973 01:22:48,109 --> 01:22:48,389 - No it must, that's in the Bible remember? 1974 01:22:48,429 --> 01:22:49,749 - They will. 1975 01:22:49,789 --> 01:22:52,429 If the evil needs to keep happening, stop being denied. 1976 01:22:52,429 --> 01:22:54,109 - Then they shouldn't forget that just a few days ago 1977 01:22:54,109 --> 01:22:54,869 - Then they shouldn't forget that just a few days ago 1978 01:22:54,909 --> 01:22:56,869 I issued an executive order to our troops 1979 01:22:56,869 --> 01:22:58,909 to stop the killing of prisoners of war 1980 01:22:58,949 --> 01:23:00,109 or others arrested by our forces. 1981 01:23:00,109 --> 01:23:00,829 or others arrested by our forces. 1982 01:23:00,829 --> 01:23:03,869 - If you issued such an order, why is it not being followed? 1983 01:23:03,909 --> 01:23:06,109 - Unlike God, I can't oversee everything yet. 1984 01:23:06,109 --> 01:23:08,109 - Unlike God, I can't oversee everything yet. 1985 01:23:10,909 --> 01:23:12,109 Anyone sabotaging orders will be punished. 1986 01:23:12,109 --> 01:23:13,549 Anyone sabotaging orders will be punished. 1987 01:23:13,589 --> 01:23:15,829 I've done as much as I could within reason. 1988 01:23:15,869 --> 01:23:18,109 - This land is the cradle of European Christianity, 1989 01:23:18,109 --> 01:23:19,269 - This land is the cradle of European Christianity, 1990 01:23:19,269 --> 01:23:20,589 a place that prevented the Turks 1991 01:23:20,629 --> 01:23:21,869 from the conquest of Europe. 1992 01:23:21,909 --> 01:23:24,109 Right now, the choice is between you and Pavelic. 1993 01:23:24,109 --> 01:23:24,909 Right now, the choice is between you and Pavelic. 1994 01:23:24,949 --> 01:23:26,869 And to whose swords you wish to die. 1995 01:23:26,909 --> 01:23:28,869 If he picks his side, his neighbor does not, 1996 01:23:28,909 --> 01:23:30,109 it means he has to take up arms and kill 1997 01:23:30,109 --> 01:23:30,389 it means he has to take up arms and kill 1998 01:23:30,429 --> 01:23:31,669 in the name of what? 1999 01:23:31,709 --> 01:23:33,869 Some ideology, both of which are destined to fail. 2000 01:23:33,909 --> 01:23:36,109 - I warned you, we can't talk like this. 2001 01:23:36,109 --> 01:23:36,829 - I warned you, we can't talk like this. 2002 01:23:36,869 --> 01:23:38,589 We weren't reaching agreement if this continues, 2003 01:23:38,629 --> 01:23:41,869 you are constantly equating our struggle with the fascist. 2004 01:23:41,869 --> 01:23:42,109 - Death on either side is death. 2005 01:23:42,109 --> 01:23:43,749 - Death on either side is death. 2006 01:23:43,789 --> 01:23:44,989 The pain, those coasters feel is still the same 2007 01:23:45,029 --> 01:23:46,389 left or right up. 2008 01:23:46,429 --> 01:23:48,109 - A price gets paid for making the wrong choice in a war. 2009 01:23:48,109 --> 01:23:49,989 - A price gets paid for making the wrong choice in a war. 2010 01:23:50,949 --> 01:23:52,829 - The curse of King Zvonimir lives on, 2011 01:23:52,869 --> 01:23:54,109 it's a plague that refuses to die. 2012 01:23:54,109 --> 01:23:54,229 it's a plague that refuses to die. 2013 01:23:54,269 --> 01:23:55,029 - I've heard of it. 2014 01:23:55,069 --> 01:23:55,909 That's a folk tale. 2015 01:23:55,949 --> 01:23:56,909 A fable. 2016 01:23:56,949 --> 01:23:58,229 - That's what you don't seem to understand. 2017 01:23:58,269 --> 01:23:59,629 Our people who have never been allowed 2018 01:23:59,629 --> 01:24:00,109 to write their own history, have no other option, 2019 01:24:00,109 --> 01:24:01,509 to write their own history, have no other option, 2020 01:24:01,509 --> 01:24:05,829 but to pass it on through talk and language as teachings. 2021 01:24:05,869 --> 01:24:06,109 So when Kings Zvonimir was about to be stoned to death 2022 01:24:06,109 --> 01:24:07,989 So when Kings Zvonimir was about to be stoned to death 2023 01:24:07,989 --> 01:24:09,429 by his own faithful countrymen, 2024 01:24:09,469 --> 01:24:10,709 he laid a curse upon them 2025 01:24:10,709 --> 01:24:12,109 that they would forever be subserving to foreigners 2026 01:24:12,109 --> 01:24:12,949 that they would forever be subserving to foreigners 2027 01:24:12,949 --> 01:24:14,189 and unworthy of their own land. 2028 01:24:14,189 --> 01:24:15,429 - I know the story. 2029 01:24:15,429 --> 01:24:16,909 - And ever since Croatians have fallen 2030 01:24:16,949 --> 01:24:18,069 under the rule of Hungry, 2031 01:24:18,109 --> 01:24:20,629 and then the Turks, Austrian, Italian, Serbs, 2032 01:24:20,669 --> 01:24:23,829 and foreigners as always find a small number of sycophants 2033 01:24:23,829 --> 01:24:24,109 who wanted their protection, serving their own interests. 2034 01:24:24,109 --> 01:24:26,309 who wanted their protection, serving their own interests. 2035 01:24:26,349 --> 01:24:28,109 Raise the hand against their own flesh and blood. 2036 01:24:28,149 --> 01:24:30,109 - Every single subject raised with you ends with God 2037 01:24:30,109 --> 01:24:31,789 - Every single subject raised with you ends with God 2038 01:24:31,789 --> 01:24:33,069 and Croat. 2039 01:24:33,109 --> 01:24:35,869 - Because I am a Croat and a Catholic, it's tragically, 2040 01:24:35,869 --> 01:24:36,109 one isn't allowed to mention it 2041 01:24:36,109 --> 01:24:36,909 one isn't allowed to mention it 2042 01:24:36,909 --> 01:24:38,349 without being labeled a nationalist. 2043 01:24:38,389 --> 01:24:40,829 - Intolerance grows once people start pounding their chest 2044 01:24:40,869 --> 01:24:42,109 proclaiming their so-called national allegiance. 2045 01:24:42,109 --> 01:24:43,349 proclaiming their so-called national allegiance. 2046 01:24:43,389 --> 01:24:44,989 - Intolerance arises when one of the groups 2047 01:24:45,029 --> 01:24:48,109 is not respected and attempts to meet to eradicate it. 2048 01:24:48,109 --> 01:24:48,309 is not respected and attempts to meet to eradicate it. 2049 01:24:48,349 --> 01:24:49,869 When Croats remembered their paths, 2050 01:24:49,909 --> 01:24:52,029 we were accused of wanting a great Croatia. 2051 01:24:52,029 --> 01:24:52,989 Why? 2052 01:24:53,029 --> 01:24:54,109 So that others can conceal their own great 2053 01:24:54,109 --> 01:24:54,389 So that others can conceal their own great 2054 01:24:54,429 --> 01:24:55,589 state potentially. 2055 01:24:55,589 --> 01:24:57,949 - The system we defeated wanted a great Croatia. 2056 01:24:57,989 --> 01:24:59,509 Did you see how far it got? 2057 01:25:00,869 --> 01:25:03,629 This is why communism is a progressive idea 2058 01:25:03,669 --> 01:25:05,069 because internationalism, 2059 01:25:05,069 --> 01:25:06,109 it raises national divisions and prevents national conflic. 2060 01:25:06,109 --> 01:25:07,789 it raises national divisions and prevents national conflic. 2061 01:25:07,829 --> 01:25:10,429 - You'll have trouble seeing it through in Yugoslavia, 2062 01:25:10,469 --> 01:25:12,109 the Serbs will never abandon their obsession 2063 01:25:12,109 --> 01:25:12,589 the Serbs will never abandon their obsession 2064 01:25:12,629 --> 01:25:14,389 with either transforming everybody into Serbs 2065 01:25:14,429 --> 01:25:15,429 or subjugating them. 2066 01:25:15,469 --> 01:25:18,109 They will focus on us, Croats the most, 2067 01:25:18,109 --> 01:25:18,149 They will focus on us, Croats the most, 2068 01:25:18,189 --> 01:25:19,629 don't forget that. 2069 01:25:19,669 --> 01:25:21,709 And since you've brought it up, 2070 01:25:21,749 --> 01:25:23,709 Christianity transcended these divisions 2071 01:25:23,749 --> 01:25:24,109 long before communism with this message of love thy self, 2072 01:25:24,109 --> 01:25:27,229 long before communism with this message of love thy self, 2073 01:25:27,269 --> 01:25:28,349 as thy neighbor. 2074 01:25:29,709 --> 01:25:30,109 But nowhere in the Bible does it say 2075 01:25:30,109 --> 01:25:30,869 But nowhere in the Bible does it say 2076 01:25:30,909 --> 01:25:32,789 you should forget once mother, once father, 2077 01:25:32,829 --> 01:25:34,869 once grandfather, great-grandfather 2078 01:25:34,909 --> 01:25:36,109 or avoid thinking about one's roots. 2079 01:25:36,109 --> 01:25:37,149 or avoid thinking about one's roots. 2080 01:25:37,189 --> 01:25:38,909 Don't you care about your family? 2081 01:25:38,949 --> 01:25:42,069 That you ask yourself who they were, where they came from. 2082 01:25:42,869 --> 01:25:45,309 - I've spent more time with you than was planned. 2083 01:25:45,349 --> 01:25:47,509 I've given you an opportunity to talk, 2084 01:25:47,509 --> 01:25:48,109 to vent your grievances something I didn't have to. 2085 01:25:48,109 --> 01:25:51,709 to vent your grievances something I didn't have to. 2086 01:25:51,749 --> 01:25:53,669 This was really at my discretion. 2087 01:25:53,709 --> 01:25:54,109 - Well, then, is a thank you enough? 2088 01:25:54,109 --> 01:25:56,469 - Well, then, is a thank you enough? 2089 01:25:56,469 --> 01:25:58,789 - We have to get to the matter at hand, 2090 01:25:58,829 --> 01:26:00,109 the obstacle of Croatia and Yugoslavia will be solved 2091 01:26:00,109 --> 01:26:01,549 the obstacle of Croatia and Yugoslavia will be solved 2092 01:26:01,589 --> 01:26:04,749 only if we reach an agreement on the most important issue, 2093 01:26:04,749 --> 01:26:06,109 the relationship between your church and our government. 2094 01:26:06,109 --> 01:26:08,469 the relationship between your church and our government. 2095 01:26:08,509 --> 01:26:09,829 - And how do you see that coming to pass? 2096 01:26:09,869 --> 01:26:12,109 - You and the Catholic church must become our ally. 2097 01:26:12,109 --> 01:26:13,029 - You and the Catholic church must become our ally. 2098 01:26:13,829 --> 01:26:16,349 You must remove yourself from the governance of the Vatican, 2099 01:26:16,389 --> 01:26:18,109 be a church that is ruled by you and your fellow worshipers 2100 01:26:18,109 --> 01:26:18,829 be a church that is ruled by you and your fellow worshipers 2101 01:26:18,869 --> 01:26:21,909 are not by religious bureaucrats sitting in Rome. 2102 01:26:21,949 --> 01:26:23,589 - That's the reason you call for me? 2103 01:26:23,589 --> 01:26:24,109 - Yugoslavia and Croatia is part of it, 2104 01:26:24,109 --> 01:26:25,829 - Yugoslavia and Croatia is part of it, 2105 01:26:25,869 --> 01:26:29,949 must be an independent Republic deciding its own fate. 2106 01:26:29,989 --> 01:26:30,109 At the moment, you are dependent on the Vatican 2107 01:26:30,109 --> 01:26:31,869 At the moment, you are dependent on the Vatican 2108 01:26:31,869 --> 01:26:34,989 for your decisions, a state that was and will always be 2109 01:26:34,989 --> 01:26:36,109 a foreign Italian entity to us. 2110 01:26:36,109 --> 01:26:37,829 a foreign Italian entity to us. 2111 01:26:37,869 --> 01:26:41,309 Just two years ago, it was part of a fascist movement 2112 01:26:41,349 --> 01:26:42,109 that fought against us on the free world. 2113 01:26:42,109 --> 01:26:42,869 that fought against us on the free world. 2114 01:26:42,909 --> 01:26:43,989 This is something I know you'll deny, 2115 01:26:44,029 --> 01:26:45,949 but these are facts you must accept. 2116 01:26:45,989 --> 01:26:48,109 - Italy freed itself from fascism during the war. 2117 01:26:48,109 --> 01:26:48,749 - Italy freed itself from fascism during the war. 2118 01:26:48,789 --> 01:26:51,829 The Vatican was made a sovereign state in 1929 specifically 2119 01:26:51,869 --> 01:26:54,109 so no one could claim it as protector of Italy, 2120 01:26:54,149 --> 01:26:56,589 but the Vatican is unique to the world. 2121 01:26:56,629 --> 01:26:58,949 It has no military or police, politicians, 2122 01:26:58,949 --> 01:27:00,109 or diplomacy of any kind like others. 2123 01:27:00,109 --> 01:27:00,869 or diplomacy of any kind like others. 2124 01:27:00,909 --> 01:27:03,989 The Vatican is a place where Jesus legacy is preserved. 2125 01:27:04,029 --> 01:27:06,109 - A legacy began by Romans in Rome after they crucified him. 2126 01:27:06,109 --> 01:27:09,229 - A legacy began by Romans in Rome after they crucified him. 2127 01:27:09,989 --> 01:27:11,709 The very man they worship now. 2128 01:27:14,949 --> 01:27:18,109 Pavelic went there to pray for God to give him the strength 2129 01:27:18,109 --> 01:27:18,949 Pavelic went there to pray for God to give him the strength 2130 01:27:18,989 --> 01:27:19,989 to kill in his name. 2131 01:27:19,989 --> 01:27:20,789 And what did the Vatican do? 2132 01:27:20,829 --> 01:27:21,909 Not a thing. 2133 01:27:21,909 --> 01:27:24,109 - If he did go, it was never an official visit 2134 01:27:24,109 --> 01:27:24,189 - If he did go, it was never an official visit 2135 01:27:24,189 --> 01:27:26,909 as head of state, and he was never received by the Pope. 2136 01:27:26,949 --> 01:27:29,189 If asking weren't interested in meeting with Pavelic. 2137 01:27:29,229 --> 01:27:30,109 - Come on now, Aloysius nothing in politics is accidental. 2138 01:27:30,109 --> 01:27:32,749 - Come on now, Aloysius nothing in politics is accidental. 2139 01:27:33,869 --> 01:27:36,109 He may not have been officially received by the Pope, 2140 01:27:36,109 --> 01:27:36,749 He may not have been officially received by the Pope, 2141 01:27:36,789 --> 01:27:39,469 but the Vatican shrewdly avoids getting thrust 2142 01:27:39,509 --> 01:27:41,949 into the sewer when those near them fall into it. 2143 01:27:41,949 --> 01:27:42,109 - I informed the Vatican of the crimes 2144 01:27:42,109 --> 01:27:44,109 - I informed the Vatican of the crimes 2145 01:27:44,149 --> 01:27:46,429 perpetrated on creation soil during the war 2146 01:27:46,469 --> 01:27:48,109 by both sides equally. 2147 01:27:48,109 --> 01:27:48,789 by both sides equally. 2148 01:27:48,829 --> 01:27:51,629 And anyone who wishes can visit the Vatican. 2149 01:27:51,669 --> 01:27:54,109 You too as a Catholic had occurred can do so as well. 2150 01:27:54,109 --> 01:27:54,589 You too as a Catholic had occurred can do so as well. 2151 01:27:54,629 --> 01:27:56,029 Nothing is preventing you. 2152 01:27:56,949 --> 01:27:59,589 - I'm sure the art is worth the trip. 2153 01:28:01,189 --> 01:28:04,069 (phone ringing) 2154 01:28:11,829 --> 01:28:12,109 - Should you answer that? 2155 01:28:12,109 --> 01:28:13,869 - Should you answer that? 2156 01:28:13,909 --> 01:28:17,869 Perhaps they wish to bring you more coffee. 2157 01:28:17,909 --> 01:28:18,109 - It'll stop. 2158 01:28:18,109 --> 01:28:19,069 - It'll stop. 2159 01:28:25,309 --> 01:28:27,829 It is crucial for us that you distance yourself 2160 01:28:27,869 --> 01:28:30,109 from the Vatican in some way, the rest will be easy. 2161 01:28:30,109 --> 01:28:30,829 from the Vatican in some way, the rest will be easy. 2162 01:28:30,869 --> 01:28:33,509 - The Cathedral in Zagreb was built stone by stone 2163 01:28:33,549 --> 01:28:35,749 over a thousand years. 2164 01:28:35,789 --> 01:28:36,109 It was built as a spiritual and religious union 2165 01:28:36,109 --> 01:28:37,909 It was built as a spiritual and religious union 2166 01:28:37,909 --> 01:28:40,869 of the Croatians with the Vatican and God. 2167 01:28:40,909 --> 01:28:42,109 It's just as old as Paris as Rotterdam. 2168 01:28:42,109 --> 01:28:43,069 It's just as old as Paris as Rotterdam. 2169 01:28:43,989 --> 01:28:45,949 1300 years have passed since our nation 2170 01:28:45,989 --> 01:28:47,109 adopted the Catholic faith 2171 01:28:47,109 --> 01:28:48,109 again, through the intermediation of Rome. 2172 01:28:48,109 --> 01:28:49,109 again, through the intermediation of Rome. 2173 01:28:49,149 --> 01:28:52,269 - You are returning to ancient history. 2174 01:28:52,269 --> 01:28:54,109 - There is no present without a clear understanding 2175 01:28:54,109 --> 01:28:54,709 - There is no present without a clear understanding 2176 01:28:54,749 --> 01:28:55,949 of the past. 2177 01:28:55,989 --> 01:28:58,029 That's the mistake politicians make when they attempt 2178 01:28:58,069 --> 01:28:59,909 to resolve current issues by making a quick 2179 01:28:59,949 --> 01:29:00,109 and superficial break from the past, 2180 01:29:00,109 --> 01:29:01,829 and superficial break from the past, 2181 01:29:01,869 --> 01:29:03,829 you can cut a tree down above its roots, 2182 01:29:03,869 --> 01:29:06,109 but 10 new branches sprout when its surface. 2183 01:29:06,109 --> 01:29:06,549 but 10 new branches sprout when its surface. 2184 01:29:06,549 --> 01:29:09,069 - Forget preaching for a moment and be realistic. 2185 01:29:09,069 --> 01:29:11,989 - The reality is communists choose to ignore the roots. 2186 01:29:12,029 --> 01:29:12,109 As if everything originated with them and by their- 2187 01:29:12,109 --> 01:29:14,069 As if everything originated with them and by their- 2188 01:29:14,109 --> 01:29:15,549 - You're repeating yourself. 2189 01:29:15,589 --> 01:29:18,109 - 1941 of all years, marked 1300 years 2190 01:29:18,149 --> 01:29:19,789 since we adopted Christianity our faith. 2191 01:29:19,829 --> 01:29:22,589 - The same year you stood by the wrong side when war began. 2192 01:29:22,629 --> 01:29:23,869 - 1300 years of loyalty, Mr. Broz. 2193 01:29:23,909 --> 01:29:24,109 - I am the General Secretary of the Communist party 2194 01:29:24,109 --> 01:29:25,829 - I am the General Secretary of the Communist party 2195 01:29:25,869 --> 01:29:29,109 of Yugoslavia, and as such, I am known Tito! 2196 01:29:31,069 --> 01:29:33,389 I believe I have earned that. 2197 01:29:35,389 --> 01:29:36,109 - I am addressing you now as a Croat 2198 01:29:36,109 --> 01:29:37,149 - I am addressing you now as a Croat 2199 01:29:37,149 --> 01:29:39,749 and son of a Catholic family, 2200 01:29:39,789 --> 01:29:42,109 something I hope you haven't forgotten, Tito. 2201 01:29:42,109 --> 01:29:43,109 something I hope you haven't forgotten, Tito. 2202 01:29:47,429 --> 01:29:48,109 - It's a little late in the day for that now, 2203 01:29:48,109 --> 01:29:49,949 - It's a little late in the day for that now, 2204 01:29:49,989 --> 01:29:51,829 let's just stick to that. 2205 01:29:51,869 --> 01:29:54,109 Unless you're thinking of re-baptizing me. 2206 01:29:54,109 --> 01:29:54,669 Unless you're thinking of re-baptizing me. 2207 01:29:54,709 --> 01:29:55,829 - Miracles do occur. 2208 01:29:58,909 --> 01:30:00,109 - I have admiration for your tenacity. 2209 01:30:00,109 --> 01:30:02,389 - I have admiration for your tenacity. 2210 01:30:04,989 --> 01:30:06,109 And I do understand you. 2211 01:30:06,109 --> 01:30:06,789 And I do understand you. 2212 01:30:10,989 --> 01:30:12,109 Do you understand me? 2213 01:30:12,109 --> 01:30:13,109 Do you understand me? 2214 01:30:16,909 --> 01:30:18,109 - God wanted us both you and I to be here 2215 01:30:18,109 --> 01:30:20,589 - God wanted us both you and I to be here 2216 01:30:20,629 --> 01:30:22,349 in this moment in time in history, 2217 01:30:22,949 --> 01:30:24,109 the future will judge us on how we act in this moment. 2218 01:30:24,109 --> 01:30:26,749 the future will judge us on how we act in this moment. 2219 01:30:26,789 --> 01:30:29,229 But our history, Croatian history, 2220 01:30:29,229 --> 01:30:30,109 and the history of our faith began 1300 years ago. 2221 01:30:30,109 --> 01:30:32,669 and the history of our faith began 1300 years ago. 2222 01:30:33,509 --> 01:30:36,109 For centuries the Vatican has stood by us, prayed for , 2223 01:30:36,109 --> 01:30:36,669 For centuries the Vatican has stood by us, prayed for , 2224 01:30:36,709 --> 01:30:39,069 and we have been there for them. 2225 01:30:39,989 --> 01:30:42,109 It was here that the bedrock of Christianity was defended. 2226 01:30:42,109 --> 01:30:43,629 It was here that the bedrock of Christianity was defended. 2227 01:30:43,669 --> 01:30:48,109 And now you wished for me to just forget it, set it aside, 2228 01:30:48,109 --> 01:30:48,949 And now you wished for me to just forget it, set it aside, 2229 01:30:49,949 --> 01:30:50,789 erase it? 2230 01:30:51,829 --> 01:30:54,109 So that I can help you reunite and idea founded in atheism? 2231 01:30:54,109 --> 01:30:55,109 So that I can help you reunite and idea founded in atheism? 2232 01:30:55,909 --> 01:30:57,949 In the name of every Croat living and gone 2233 01:30:57,989 --> 01:30:59,389 I will not do that. 2234 01:30:59,429 --> 01:31:00,109 Not now, not ever. 2235 01:31:00,109 --> 01:31:01,109 Not now, not ever. 2236 01:31:02,989 --> 01:31:06,109 - The Vatican's tentacles overreach their boundaries. 2237 01:31:06,109 --> 01:31:06,509 - The Vatican's tentacles overreach their boundaries. 2238 01:31:06,549 --> 01:31:09,229 I see the connection you seem to have with them, 2239 01:31:09,269 --> 01:31:12,109 but I can't accept a foreign entity to have so much power. 2240 01:31:12,109 --> 01:31:12,549 but I can't accept a foreign entity to have so much power. 2241 01:31:12,589 --> 01:31:13,669 I can't allow it. 2242 01:31:13,709 --> 01:31:15,509 - To Vatican is not run like a government. 2243 01:31:15,549 --> 01:31:18,029 - Well, perhaps we could learn a thing or two from them 2244 01:31:18,029 --> 01:31:18,109 because they've managed to govern without 2245 01:31:18,109 --> 01:31:19,709 because they've managed to govern without 2246 01:31:19,749 --> 01:31:22,109 officially governing for 2000 years. 2247 01:31:23,309 --> 01:31:24,109 - Spoken like a true atheist. 2248 01:31:24,109 --> 01:31:25,669 - Spoken like a true atheist. 2249 01:31:25,669 --> 01:31:27,789 - I don't hide my disbelief. 2250 01:31:27,829 --> 01:31:29,869 Just like you don't hide your belief. 2251 01:31:30,989 --> 01:31:32,869 - So what created us? 2252 01:31:32,909 --> 01:31:34,429 - You've just given me a lesson in the history 2253 01:31:34,469 --> 01:31:36,109 of the church, and now you want me to give you my version 2254 01:31:36,109 --> 01:31:37,029 of the church, and now you want me to give you my version 2255 01:31:37,069 --> 01:31:38,789 of what the universe is. 2256 01:31:38,829 --> 01:31:40,069 - I've always wondered how an atheist 2257 01:31:40,109 --> 01:31:42,109 can believe in love and not believe in God. 2258 01:31:42,109 --> 01:31:42,629 can believe in love and not believe in God. 2259 01:31:42,669 --> 01:31:45,469 - God and love are not the same. 2260 01:31:45,509 --> 01:31:47,629 - One cannot believe in love without God 2261 01:31:47,669 --> 01:31:48,109 or God without love. 2262 01:31:48,109 --> 01:31:48,789 or God without love. 2263 01:31:48,829 --> 01:31:50,109 - That as a rabbit hole. 2264 01:31:50,149 --> 01:31:51,509 - In what way? 2265 01:31:51,549 --> 01:31:53,629 - If I tell you that I believe in love. 2266 01:31:53,669 --> 01:31:54,109 - You believe in love? 2267 01:31:54,109 --> 01:31:54,509 - You believe in love? 2268 01:31:54,509 --> 01:31:56,789 - I do. - Well that's enough. 2269 01:31:56,829 --> 01:31:58,109 - You asked. 2270 01:31:59,389 --> 01:32:00,109 - Go on. 2271 01:32:00,109 --> 01:32:00,269 - Go on. 2272 01:32:02,309 --> 01:32:04,829 - I believe that we are a fortunate accident 2273 01:32:04,869 --> 01:32:06,109 one that has the capacity for beauty to create it, 2274 01:32:06,109 --> 01:32:09,869 one that has the capacity for beauty to create it, 2275 01:32:09,909 --> 01:32:12,109 to enjoy it, live with it and by it. 2276 01:32:12,109 --> 01:32:12,829 to enjoy it, live with it and by it. 2277 01:32:13,909 --> 01:32:15,989 But do I believe that God created us? 2278 01:32:16,029 --> 01:32:17,349 No. 2279 01:32:17,349 --> 01:32:18,109 - And you've made inquiries to be sure. 2280 01:32:18,109 --> 01:32:19,829 - And you've made inquiries to be sure. 2281 01:32:19,869 --> 01:32:21,309 - Spiritual or physical. 2282 01:32:21,349 --> 01:32:22,949 - I mean, you said there is no presence 2283 01:32:22,949 --> 01:32:23,989 of any physical evidence. 2284 01:32:24,029 --> 01:32:24,109 - Well, no, there isn't. 2285 01:32:24,109 --> 01:32:25,949 - Well, no, there isn't. 2286 01:32:25,989 --> 01:32:27,749 - And that may be true, 2287 01:32:27,749 --> 01:32:29,949 but I'd argue that there are millions around the world 2288 01:32:29,989 --> 01:32:30,109 who without the actual physical presence of God 2289 01:32:30,109 --> 01:32:32,989 who without the actual physical presence of God 2290 01:32:33,029 --> 01:32:33,909 have felt it. 2291 01:32:33,949 --> 01:32:36,109 - When people want to believe 2292 01:32:36,109 --> 01:32:36,469 - When people want to believe 2293 01:32:36,509 --> 01:32:40,029 their belief tends to cloud their judgment, much like yours. 2294 01:32:40,789 --> 01:32:42,109 - I have felt God in every step I've taken in my life. 2295 01:32:42,109 --> 01:32:44,509 - I have felt God in every step I've taken in my life. 2296 01:32:45,829 --> 01:32:48,109 - You speak of love, but you've never kissed a woman. 2297 01:32:48,109 --> 01:32:48,869 - You speak of love, but you've never kissed a woman. 2298 01:32:51,669 --> 01:32:54,109 People like you, you stand at the altar, 2299 01:32:54,109 --> 01:32:54,469 People like you, you stand at the altar, 2300 01:32:54,509 --> 01:32:55,909 handing out lessons speaking of things 2301 01:32:55,949 --> 01:32:59,069 you yourself have never experienced. 2302 01:33:00,869 --> 01:33:03,069 How could you, what am I saying? 2303 01:33:03,109 --> 01:33:05,829 The church won't allow it. 2304 01:33:05,869 --> 01:33:06,109 If God created us, as you say he did, then why, 2305 01:33:06,109 --> 01:33:10,949 If God created us, as you say he did, then why, 2306 01:33:10,989 --> 01:33:12,109 why must his emissaries people like you 2307 01:33:12,109 --> 01:33:13,949 why must his emissaries people like you 2308 01:33:13,989 --> 01:33:16,749 mute your human desires? 2309 01:33:16,789 --> 01:33:18,109 Is that Christian? 2310 01:33:18,109 --> 01:33:18,949 Is that Christian? 2311 01:33:18,989 --> 01:33:19,869 Is it love? 2312 01:33:20,869 --> 01:33:21,949 I'd say it isn't. 2313 01:33:22,909 --> 01:33:24,109 - Our love belongs to the worshipers. 2314 01:33:24,109 --> 01:33:24,789 - Our love belongs to the worshipers. 2315 01:33:24,829 --> 01:33:27,669 - Oh, forgive me, but shit doesn't suddenly turn into gd 2316 01:33:27,709 --> 01:33:30,069 just because it comes out of your mouth. 2317 01:33:30,069 --> 01:33:30,109 What would you call your talk on what love is? 2318 01:33:30,109 --> 01:33:33,949 What would you call your talk on what love is? 2319 01:33:33,949 --> 01:33:36,109 Theory or practice, which is it? 2320 01:33:36,109 --> 01:33:37,789 Theory or practice, which is it? 2321 01:33:38,909 --> 01:33:41,949 - I did sacrifice a different kind of life 2322 01:33:41,989 --> 01:33:42,109 for what I have now, yes. 2323 01:33:42,109 --> 01:33:43,709 for what I have now, yes. 2324 01:33:44,909 --> 01:33:45,909 But I have no regrets. 2325 01:33:45,949 --> 01:33:48,069 - That's not what I'm talking about. 2326 01:33:50,949 --> 01:33:52,549 - I have never kissed a woman. 2327 01:33:53,709 --> 01:33:54,109 I don't know what that feeling is like, yes, 2328 01:33:54,109 --> 01:33:56,029 I don't know what that feeling is like, yes, 2329 01:33:56,069 --> 01:33:57,269 you have me beat. 2330 01:33:58,749 --> 01:34:00,109 I will never have children. 2331 01:34:01,189 --> 01:34:02,949 Perhaps the one aspect of all you mentioned 2332 01:34:02,949 --> 01:34:05,189 that rings inside my heart is that, 2333 01:34:06,989 --> 01:34:09,029 but I have love inside me. 2334 01:34:09,069 --> 01:34:11,429 The love for my people and the love of my country. 2335 01:34:11,469 --> 01:34:12,109 To you that may seem foolish, but to me, 2336 01:34:12,109 --> 01:34:13,949 To you that may seem foolish, but to me, 2337 01:34:13,989 --> 01:34:15,229 it gives me purpose. 2338 01:34:17,149 --> 01:34:18,109 - I want an agreement between you and me, 2339 01:34:18,109 --> 01:34:19,669 - I want an agreement between you and me, 2340 01:34:19,709 --> 01:34:20,869 between the church and the government 2341 01:34:20,909 --> 01:34:23,069 to distance yourself from the Vatican. 2342 01:34:23,109 --> 01:34:24,109 I am giving you an opportunity to live in peace, 2343 01:34:24,109 --> 01:34:26,589 I am giving you an opportunity to live in peace, 2344 01:34:26,629 --> 01:34:28,029 to co-exist. 2345 01:34:28,909 --> 01:34:30,109 If you don't take advantage of this, 2346 01:34:30,109 --> 01:34:32,589 I'm afraid things will go downhill rather fast. 2347 01:34:32,629 --> 01:34:35,149 - I will not back down from my stance. 2348 01:34:35,189 --> 01:34:36,109 - And what if you were to take refuge in the Vatican 2349 01:34:36,109 --> 01:34:38,709 - And what if you were to take refuge in the Vatican 2350 01:34:38,709 --> 01:34:41,109 for awhile, a spiritual sabbatical. 2351 01:34:41,149 --> 01:34:42,109 - I don't need the Vatican to be spiritual. 2352 01:34:42,109 --> 01:34:42,869 - I don't need the Vatican to be spiritual. 2353 01:34:42,869 --> 01:34:43,869 - You don't need the Vatican, yes. 2354 01:34:43,869 --> 01:34:44,549 - You are trying to trick me. 2355 01:34:44,589 --> 01:34:45,909 - You the Vatican. 2356 01:34:45,909 --> 01:34:48,109 - I don't need it to be spiritual, I need to for guidance. 2357 01:34:48,149 --> 01:34:49,429 - Well, that's the thing, isn't it? 2358 01:34:49,469 --> 01:34:51,989 - Your guidance isn't your, you're a mere puppet 2359 01:34:52,029 --> 01:34:52,789 of the pope. 2360 01:34:52,829 --> 01:34:54,109 - And aren't you one of Stalin? 2361 01:34:54,109 --> 01:34:54,309 - And aren't you one of Stalin? 2362 01:34:57,109 --> 01:35:00,109 - For your own good you should rethink your present decision 2363 01:35:00,109 --> 01:35:02,109 - For your own good you should rethink your present decision 2364 01:35:02,149 --> 01:35:04,029 for the sake of the future. 2365 01:35:04,069 --> 01:35:05,909 We'll work to further consolidate our power 2366 01:35:05,949 --> 01:35:06,109 and whoever opposes us will encounter a monumental obstacle. 2367 01:35:06,109 --> 01:35:10,149 and whoever opposes us will encounter a monumental obstacle. 2368 01:35:10,149 --> 01:35:12,109 The revolution continues by all available means 2369 01:35:12,109 --> 01:35:12,989 The revolution continues by all available means 2370 01:35:12,989 --> 01:35:14,869 legal and justified. 2371 01:35:14,909 --> 01:35:17,829 - The Stalin trials with bulk and twists. 2372 01:35:17,829 --> 01:35:18,109 - There are people who want to see you prosecution. 2373 01:35:18,109 --> 01:35:20,189 - There are people who want to see you prosecution. 2374 01:35:20,229 --> 01:35:21,429 - Many would. 2375 01:35:21,469 --> 01:35:24,109 - Prosecuted for war crimes. 2376 01:35:24,109 --> 01:35:24,149 - Prosecuted for war crimes. 2377 01:35:24,949 --> 01:35:27,789 There is evidence here to plant a seed of doubt 2378 01:35:27,829 --> 01:35:30,109 and the world will never see you as an innocent man again, 2379 01:35:30,109 --> 01:35:30,909 and the world will never see you as an innocent man again, 2380 01:35:30,949 --> 01:35:34,629 it's all it takes a single seed. 2381 01:35:34,669 --> 01:35:36,109 - I am ready for whatever storms may lay ahead. 2382 01:35:36,109 --> 01:35:37,469 - I am ready for whatever storms may lay ahead. 2383 01:35:37,469 --> 01:35:39,429 - You don't want to be running into the mist 2384 01:35:39,429 --> 01:35:41,829 like a goose, few have survived it. 2385 01:35:42,989 --> 01:35:44,229 I hope I'm being clear. 2386 01:35:45,709 --> 01:35:46,949 - Crystal clear. 2387 01:35:48,549 --> 01:35:52,309 But let me be clear, our church has not refused 2388 01:35:52,309 --> 01:35:53,669 to work with your government, 2389 01:35:53,669 --> 01:35:54,109 it is in fact, the other way around. 2390 01:35:54,109 --> 01:35:55,549 it is in fact, the other way around. 2391 01:35:56,589 --> 01:35:59,229 We've been told what to do, dictated, 2392 01:35:59,269 --> 01:36:00,109 believers being ban not to attend mass 2393 01:36:00,109 --> 01:36:00,629 believers being ban not to attend mass 2394 01:36:00,669 --> 01:36:04,029 and yet you proclaim freedom and protection of religion. 2395 01:36:04,829 --> 01:36:06,109 The youth of being politicized and encouraged to oppose 2396 01:36:06,109 --> 01:36:06,909 The youth of being politicized and encouraged to oppose 2397 01:36:06,949 --> 01:36:09,029 all those who aren't in the party. 2398 01:36:09,029 --> 01:36:10,749 The printing and publishing of our books 2399 01:36:10,749 --> 01:36:12,109 and papers is being suspended. 2400 01:36:12,109 --> 01:36:12,709 and papers is being suspended. 2401 01:36:12,749 --> 01:36:15,109 Charitable work, and the work of nuns forbidden. 2402 01:36:15,869 --> 01:36:17,909 Not to mention the priest is still being imprisoned 2403 01:36:17,949 --> 01:36:18,109 or simply disappeared without a trace. 2404 01:36:18,109 --> 01:36:21,309 or simply disappeared without a trace. 2405 01:36:21,349 --> 01:36:24,109 So tell me what would happen if we surrendered 2406 01:36:24,109 --> 01:36:26,269 So tell me what would happen if we surrendered 2407 01:36:27,029 --> 01:36:30,109 and leave the Vatican, what would become of us? 2408 01:36:30,109 --> 01:36:30,189 and leave the Vatican, what would become of us? 2409 01:36:31,469 --> 01:36:33,829 - I'd say that would be the wisest decision 2410 01:36:33,869 --> 01:36:36,109 you could make for your believers and for yourself, 2411 01:36:36,109 --> 01:36:38,509 you could make for your believers and for yourself, 2412 01:36:39,509 --> 01:36:41,869 but I'm not in the business of persuasion. 2413 01:36:41,869 --> 01:36:42,109 - This entire conversation has been just that. 2414 01:36:42,109 --> 01:36:43,949 - This entire conversation has been just that. 2415 01:36:43,989 --> 01:36:44,989 - Well, if it has, 2416 01:36:44,989 --> 01:36:47,149 then I'm obviously not very good at it. 2417 01:36:47,869 --> 01:36:48,109 - I will not abandon the vow I've made at the church, 2418 01:36:48,109 --> 01:36:50,829 - I will not abandon the vow I've made at the church, 2419 01:36:50,869 --> 01:36:53,189 to God and to the faithful. 2420 01:36:53,229 --> 01:36:54,109 - You've made that abundantly clear. 2421 01:36:54,109 --> 01:36:55,149 - You've made that abundantly clear. 2422 01:36:57,469 --> 01:36:59,229 But time isn't on your side, 2423 01:36:59,269 --> 01:37:00,109 nor of the symbol you're wearing around your neck. 2424 01:37:00,109 --> 01:37:02,509 nor of the symbol you're wearing around your neck. 2425 01:37:04,389 --> 01:37:06,109 I'd hate to see it look down upon one day 2426 01:37:06,109 --> 01:37:06,789 I'd hate to see it look down upon one day 2427 01:37:07,749 --> 01:37:09,189 just like the Swastika case. 2428 01:37:10,869 --> 01:37:12,109 - I choose to have faith in the one who sacrificed 2429 01:37:12,109 --> 01:37:13,149 - I choose to have faith in the one who sacrificed 2430 01:37:13,189 --> 01:37:14,269 himself for us. 2431 01:37:14,909 --> 01:37:18,109 And I'm convinced that your red star will never replace 2432 01:37:18,109 --> 01:37:18,829 And I'm convinced that your red star will never replace 2433 01:37:18,869 --> 01:37:20,109 the symbol I wear. 2434 01:37:27,069 --> 01:37:29,309 - You've said no to me the entire evening. 2435 01:37:32,189 --> 01:37:33,949 I'm not accustomed to this. 2436 01:37:36,429 --> 01:37:39,109 So permit me for request. 2437 01:37:39,949 --> 01:37:42,109 I'd like to hear one yes from you. 2438 01:37:42,109 --> 01:37:42,549 I'd like to hear one yes from you. 2439 01:37:43,549 --> 01:37:44,829 - That depends what you're asking of me. 2440 01:37:44,869 --> 01:37:46,549 - You have to say yes and I'll ask, 2441 01:37:46,589 --> 01:37:48,109 but you have to say yes beforehand, 2442 01:37:48,109 --> 01:37:48,309 but you have to say yes beforehand, 2443 01:37:48,349 --> 01:37:50,709 you can trust me this ones. 2444 01:37:51,909 --> 01:37:54,109 - Only if you accept a gift I have for you. 2445 01:37:54,109 --> 01:37:55,029 - Only if you accept a gift I have for you. 2446 01:37:55,029 --> 01:37:55,949 - A gift? 2447 01:37:55,989 --> 01:37:56,909 - Yes. 2448 01:37:56,949 --> 01:37:58,669 - I can't say no to a gift. 2449 01:37:59,869 --> 01:38:00,109 - Then I will say yes. 2450 01:38:00,109 --> 01:38:02,149 - Then I will say yes. 2451 01:38:28,309 --> 01:38:29,549 - To new ideas. 2452 01:38:31,029 --> 01:38:32,029 - To truth. 2453 01:38:39,869 --> 01:38:42,109 - Aloysius, perhaps I've been all wrong about you. 2454 01:38:42,109 --> 01:38:42,869 - Aloysius, perhaps I've been all wrong about you. 2455 01:38:42,909 --> 01:38:46,149 - Well, I am a son of a winemaker after all. 2456 01:38:47,629 --> 01:38:48,109 - Now, your gift, I'm excited. 2457 01:38:48,109 --> 01:38:50,149 - Now, your gift, I'm excited. 2458 01:39:08,949 --> 01:39:11,229 - So that you remember your roots, 2459 01:39:11,269 --> 01:39:12,109 and always know that he is there for you, 2460 01:39:12,109 --> 01:39:14,629 and always know that he is there for you, 2461 01:39:14,629 --> 01:39:16,429 even if you choose not to believe. 2462 01:39:18,909 --> 01:39:21,029 - Very thoughtful of you, thank you. 2463 01:39:28,669 --> 01:39:30,109 The meeting's over, get the car ready to escort 2464 01:39:30,109 --> 01:39:31,109 The meeting's over, get the car ready to escort 2465 01:39:31,149 --> 01:39:33,109 the Archbishop back to his residence. 2466 01:39:34,989 --> 01:39:36,109 (recorder whirring) 2467 01:39:36,109 --> 01:39:38,109 (recorder whirring) 2468 01:39:44,189 --> 01:39:46,029 Goodnight to you, Aloysius. 2469 01:39:47,069 --> 01:39:48,109 And good luck. 2470 01:39:48,109 --> 01:39:48,189 And good luck. 2471 01:39:51,829 --> 01:39:54,109 (soft music) 2472 01:39:54,109 --> 01:39:54,149 (soft music) 2473 01:39:58,349 --> 01:40:00,109 - Can I leave you with one final thought. 2474 01:40:00,109 --> 01:40:00,709 - Can I leave you with one final thought. 2475 01:40:02,429 --> 01:40:03,909 - Of course? 2476 01:40:03,949 --> 01:40:05,949 - When the great artist Voltaire, 2477 01:40:05,989 --> 01:40:06,109 who had been a harsh critic of the church his entire life 2478 01:40:06,109 --> 01:40:09,389 who had been a harsh critic of the church his entire life 2479 01:40:09,429 --> 01:40:12,109 was on his death bed, a friend asked him, 2480 01:40:12,109 --> 01:40:12,949 was on his death bed, a friend asked him, 2481 01:40:12,989 --> 01:40:15,869 "Voltaire, is there a God?" 2482 01:40:16,549 --> 01:40:18,109 To which he replied, "Perhaps now is not the right time 2483 01:40:18,109 --> 01:40:20,949 To which he replied, "Perhaps now is not the right time 2484 01:40:20,989 --> 01:40:22,429 to make new enemies." 2485 01:40:23,949 --> 01:40:24,109 May God be with you, Marshall Tito. 2486 01:40:24,109 --> 01:40:26,549 May God be with you, Marshall Tito. 2487 01:40:29,229 --> 01:40:30,109 (gentle orchestral music) 2488 01:40:30,109 --> 01:40:33,029 (gentle orchestral music) 2489 01:43:18,029 --> 01:43:18,109 (dramatic music) 2490 01:43:18,109 --> 01:43:20,949 (dramatic music) 2491 01:45:48,909 --> 01:45:52,109 (gentle piano music)